Does anyone here think that Larry Holmes is sometimes underappreciated?

But this is a list of all the top HWs at the time. Who didn't he fight, you mean?

Seeing how a very green Witherspoon gave Holmes trouble I can see several. Folley with his right hand, Mildenberger with his awkward, agressive southpaw stance (which would help to partly negate Holmes greatest asset - his jab), Terrell with his jab, size and durability. Holmes never beat someone with the speed of Patterson either.

 

I think prime Terrell have to be viewed as better than Witherspoon with only 16 fights behind him. Prime for prime they are close, though.

 

Yeah, that's an interesting one.

 

You are missing the point.
I said everyone except Liston.

Yes Sonny Liston was great, but there are questions about the legitimacy of those fights, 'wouldn't you agree'?

Look at Ali's list.
11/22/65,, KO 12,,, #1 Floyd Patterson 43-4-0
30-years old, 5' 11' 197 lbs. (Floyd with a great heart, but 'soft whiskers')
* Note; Just ask amateur Pete Rademacher, and 'Oh so slow punching Ingemar
Johannsen)

3/29/66,,,wdec 15,, #8 George Chuvalo 34-11-2
29-years old, 6' 0" 214 lbs.
* Note; George Chuvalo had lost 2 of his previous 3 fights. One to Ernie Terrell and the other to 'Oh My God' Eduardo Corletti.

5/21/66,,,KO 6 (cuts),, #2 Henry Cooper 33-11-1
32-year old, 6' 1" 188 lbs.
* Note; Lost 5 of his fights by Knock-out

8/6/66,,,KO 3,,, #10 Brain London 35-13-0
32-year old, 6' 0" 201 lbs.
* Note; Lost 4 of fights by Knock-out

9/10/66,,,KO 12,,, #4 Karl Mildenberger 49-2-3
29-year old, 6' 0" 195 lbs.
* Note; Knocked out in 1 Round by Dick Richardson (Who?)

11/14/66,,,KO 3 ,,, #8 Cleveland Williams 65-5-1
33-year old, 6' 3" 210 lbs.
* Note; Williams was coming back from a gunshot wound.

2/6/67,,,Wdec 15,,, * WBA Heavyweight Champion Ernie Terrell 39-4-0
28-years old, 6' 6" 212 lbs.
* Note; Finally a decent opponent.

3/22/67,,, KO 7,,, #1 Zora Folley 74-7-4
36-year old, 6' 1" 202 lbs.
* Note; A 36 year-old fighter.

Come on Man,,,,,,,,Is that a tough list..

 

Anyway you slice it, it's better than Holmes'.

34-year old Norton, 35+ Shavers, 16 fight 'Spoon, 17 fight Carl Williams etc, etc. And he struggled with several of those.

At the end of the day, Ali beat everyone around in his time. Holmes didn't.

I'm actually doubtful Holmes beat anyone as good as 30-year old Patterson or prime Terrell. And of course no one near the quality of Liston, Frazier or Foreman.

 

Not again the myth of Patterson´s bad chin. I´m really starting to hate all people who claim this. :fire

:good

 

Bokaj,

Everyone on Ali's list of 8 defenses had been previously knocked out or stopped with
the exception of 'iron-jawwed' George Chuvalo.
Ernie Terrell was stopped on cuts, after getting floored by Cleveland Williams.
Patterson, Cooper, London, Mildenberger, Williams and Folley had all
suffered multiple (at least 2) brutal knock-outs.

On the Cleveland Williams fight, He had no business being in the ring with Ali.
It was a 'gift' from the Houston promoter, who was tying to help Williams out.

 

Frik-n-Frak,

I'm not saying Larry Holmes had the greatest first '8' defenses either, but
they were on par with Ali's first '8' defenses.

11/20/78,,,KO 7,,, #9 Alfredo Evangilista 23-2-1
24 years old, 6' 1" 208 lbs.

3/23/79,,,KO 7,,, #4 Ossie Ocassio 13-0-0
24 years old, 6' 0" 207 lbs.

6/22/79,,,KO 12,,, #7 Mike Weaver 19-8-0
28 years old, 6' 1" 202 lbs.

9/28/79,,, KO 11,,, #1 Earnie Shavers 60-6-1
34 yars old, 6' 0" 211 lbs.

2/3/80,,, KO 6,,, #9 Lorenzo Zanon 25-4-2
29 years old, 6' 2" 215 lbs.

3/31/80,,, KO 8 ,,, #1 Leroy Jones 24-0-1
31 years old, 6' 5" 245 lbs.

7/22/80,,, KO 7,,, #8 Scott LeDoux 28-8-4
31 years old, 6' 1" 226 lbs.

10/2/80,,, KO 10 #5 Muhammad Ali 56-3-0
38 years old, 6' 3" 217 lbs.

* Note; Ali was given a 'gift' rating of #5, when everybody knew he didn't deserve it. Also, Ali originally wanted to fight Mike Weaver for the WBA title first.

 

Here are the rankings while Ali was champion.

Now while I agree that he dominated a weak era in his prime, I do think that he was sincerely trying to fight the beast opponents available.

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1964 Muhammad Ali, Champion

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8. Roger Rischer
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1965 Muhammad Ali, Champion

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6. Amos Lincoln
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1966 Muhammad Ali, Champion

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9. Johnny Persol
10. Manuel Ramos

1967 Muhammad Ali, Champion

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2. Thad Spencer
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8. Hector Eduardo Corletti
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1968 Muhammad Ali, Champion

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7. Leotis Martin
8. Manuel Ramos
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1969 Muhammad Ali, Champion

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8. Al Jones
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10. Gregorio Manuel Peralta

 

These were not as good as Ali's defenses. And you insist on drawing arbitrary lines, excluding Liston and Terrell. That's nonsense.

Ali cleaned out the division twice. Holmes never did. Look at Janitor's post to get some guidance.

 

Good work. You forgot one, though - Al Lewis.

 

Yes. I also missed Mac Foster.

Still, it only enhances my argument!

 

Holmes is not underated.

I think the top 7 is good for him, though most have him top 3 for some odd reason, which is way too high imo. That place should be for guys that clean out the divsion, and left no option who was number 1.

 

Ali's first reign was a lot like Tyson's. He cleaned house with an era that had seen its best days earlier in the decade. But no one can question the level of dominance. Ane he later asserted this by beating a crop of good contenders in their prime while past his own.

It's been said so many times before on this forum, but obviously can't be said enough: Ali's record is just as fantastic as it is propped up to be. His and Louis' are in a league of their own.

 

It does. I was surprised to see that Thad Spencer was so strong in the rankings, though. He's the one who got away I suppose.