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Does anyone honestly believe Hopkins could have beat Jones anytime between 1998-2002

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by JasonHensley, Feb 15, 2010.

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yesihavearm2 ESB Chinchecker Full Member

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Hopkins would have beaten Jones had he moved up to LHW earlier in his career

yesihavearm2, Feb 15, 2010

#16

bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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BigBone said: ↑

I'd say Hopkins wins a few times out of 10, just not sure how many.

My biggest problem with your suggestion of "Roy of 1998-2002" is the same with "the Tyson of 1989 vs. XY". The problem is called James Buster Douglas and Antonio Tarver, who beat Tyson and Jones 12 months later, and nobody suggested BEFORE THE FIGHT that they are past their best, all the talk came AFTER the loss. The Jones of 1998-2002 fought mediocre and handpicked opposition, OF COURSE his non-human athletic abilities looked even better than before. But what Roy (and actually most) fans fail to realize is that Tarver was his first legit test and non-handpicked live opponent in years, there's absolutely nothing to debate here. And this first legit, non-handpicked test came just a year of this so-called Prime Roy of 2002, and a few months after the career-best Roy of 2003, beating John Ruiz.

In reality, boxers don't go from prime untouchable to shot to **** in months, especially those who don't take punishment at all. The reason Roy was KO'd in the SECOND Tarver fight is that the he took a beating the the FIRST. "Shot Roy" callers simply look past that first fight, but for me the explanation of "he barely beat Tarver then got KO'd THEREFORE he's shot" is not good enough, in fact, it's laughable.

Entering the 1st Tarver fight, nobody said a damn thing about Roy looking old, but even back then unbiased experts said non-handpicked Tarver is Roy's most dangerous opponent in years and would most likely give him hell, which he did.

Now if you give credit to Tarver taking the fight to any version of Roy, we can talk. Nobody is untouchable and the first fight was a serious reality check for Roy and his fans despite the excuses AFTER like cutting weight and others which might or might was a real effect at all. What was a real effect was called Antonio Tarver.

Now on topic. The Hopkins who lost to Jones got knocked down multiple times vs. Mercado a year later and wasn't really more than skilled pressure fighter who became good, great then elite with experience - including the Roy fight, his first world-class opponent in his ENTIRE CAREER. Roy on the other hand, being the supremely athletic fighter who was pretty much ready for anything right after the Olympics and beat Toney in IMO his best performance ever just a year after Hopkins, was the prime Roy in there. And green Hopkins took off 4 rounds of prime Roy.

Hopkins' improvement actually took a loooong time, even years later vs. Johnson and John David Jackson he pretty much went in there beating down opposition, the elite skills were forged with the many title defenses. Entering the Tito fight in 2001, he was 2 or 3 full levels better than the Roy version who won 4 rounds back then. It was about 2000 when Hopkins became the supreme fighter neutralizing speed, power and athletic abilities and became the upper elite with his defense, timing, adapting, taking away advantages and turning any fight into his kind of physical/skilled battle.

Back to Tarver. Antonio, a ****ing anti-Jones monk studying the guy in his revenge-driven years purposefully used Roy's countering-on-the-ropes tactic against him, closing the distance in the corners and not letting Jones getting any air to pull back and land his short hooks. Among many smart tactics, Tarver's work at the ropes helped him making the first fight even, and (I know you're gonna debate it), Calzaghe used that as well, putting his forehead on Roy's closed gloves, not giving him the space which was required to beat the living **** of the Richard "B-Level" Halls at the ropes.

Roy never really changed his style, so if not his punches, his strategy became predictable. So it's safe to say that if Tarver came up with his successful tactics, an A++ strategist like Hopkins would've used the similar stuff back in 2002 as well. I do believe Hopkins (very strong at 175 too) would've found great success at the ropes, and he would've used a hell lot of old school tricks Tarver hasn't even heard before. I do not accept that "Roy was shot because of this and that BECAUSE he didn't put Tarver away, and Hopkins is much better in every area than Tarver, with the ability of applying the same strategy Antonio used in 2003.

So. I do think that in 10 imaginary fights the Hopkins of 2001 is more than capable of winning a few vs. that "prime" Roy.
Click to expand...

Reasonable and many interesting points. :good

bodhi, Feb 15, 2010

#17

Imperial1 VIP Member Full Member

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The Jones of 1998-2002 fought mediocre and handpicked opposition

Click to expand...

Classic Jones rubbish from so called Jones experts :

From 98 -02

Jones vs :

Virgil Hill
Lou DeValle
Otis Grant
Richard Frazier
Reggie Johnson
David Telesco
Richard Hall
Derick Harmon
Julio Ceasar Gonzalez
Glen Kelly
Clinton Woods

hell of a handpicked and mediocre list !

Hopkins wouldn't of toched him ..Wonder who he fought around 98 -02

Lets see;

Robert Allen
Robert Allen
Antwon Echols
Syd Vanderpool
Antwon Echols
Kieth Holmes
Tito Trinidad
Carl Daniels

Yeah murderers row ...I love how Jones just fought policemen and garbage men but Hopkins is looked at as if never fought quetsionable fights !

Imperial1, Feb 15, 2010

#18
KCD All aboard. Full Member

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Sweet Jones said: ↑

This content is protected

Click to expand...

About right:good

KCD, Feb 15, 2010

#19

Rico Spadafora Master of Chins Full Member

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Imperial1 said: ↑

Classic Jones rubbish from so called Jones experts :

From 98 -02

Jones vs :

Virgil Hill
Lou DeValle
Otis Grant
Richard Frazier
Reggie Johnson
David Telesco
Richard Hall
Derick Harmon
Julio Ceasar Gonzalez
Glen Kelly
Clinton Woods

hell of a handpicked and mediocre list !

Hopkins wouldn't of toched him ..Wonder who he fought around 98 -02

Lets see;

Robert Allen
Robert Allen
Antwon Echols
Syd Vanderpool
Antwon Echols
Kieth Holmes
Tito Trinidad
Carl Daniels

Yeah murderers row ...I love how Jones just fought policemen and garbage men but Hopkins is looked at as if never fought quetsionable fights !
Click to expand...

Hill was old as hell, Grant was awful, Frazier was awful, Hall was a joke, Harmon was awful, Glen Kelly was a sanitation worker for christ sakes, and Woods was exposed as being nothing but a British level fighter. That list is a joke. Not to mention Del Valle put Jones on his ass.

Are you serious trying to act like that was some competition? One guy was an off duty cop and another was a garbage man. :roflatsch

Rico Spadafora, Feb 15, 2010

#20
Mind Reader J-U-ICE Full Member

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Rico Spadafora said: ↑

Hill was old as hell, Grant was awful, Frazier was awful, Hall was a joke, Harmon was awful, Glen Kelly was a sanitation worker for christ sakes, and Woods was exposed as being nothing but a British level fighter. That list is a joke. Not to mention Del Valle put Jones on his ass.

Are you serious trying to act like that was some competition? One guy was an off duty cop and another was a garbage man. :roflatsch
Click to expand...

More of your crazy bull****.... Hill was old as hell? Do you even know how old he was? He was the exact same age as Roy was when in your words Roy was "exposed" by Tarver.... Its funny though you give Hill the benefit of the doubt when it comes to age. Especially since you are still very hard on Roy for getting knocked out at the age of 41.

Did you know that he went the distance with DM 8 months before Roy knocked him out in the 4th with a crushing body shot?... Did you know he also went on to win a Cruiserweight belt after Roy beat him?

Clinton Woods was also a very good fighter.

I can't believe you would bring up Lou Del Vaulle.... Are you serious? Did you even see the fight? Roy beat the **** out of him.

Mind Reader, Feb 15, 2010

#21
kirk l l l Staff Member

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BigBone said: ↑

I'd say Hopkins wins a few times out of 10, just not sure how many.

My biggest problem with your suggestion of "Roy of 1998-2002" is the same with "the Tyson of 1989 vs. XY". The problem is called James Buster Douglas and Antonio Tarver, who beat Tyson and Jones 12 months later, and nobody suggested BEFORE THE FIGHT that they are past their best, all the talk came AFTER the loss. The Jones of 1998-2002 fought mediocre and handpicked opposition, OF COURSE his non-human athletic abilities looked even better than before. But what Roy (and actually most) fans fail to realize is that Tarver was his first legit test and non-handpicked live opponent in years, there's absolutely nothing to debate here. And this first legit, non-handpicked test came just a year of this so-called Prime Roy of 2002, and a few months after the career-best Roy of 2003, beating John Ruiz.

In reality, boxers don't go from prime untouchable to shot to **** in months, especially those who don't take punishment at all. The reason Roy was KO'd in the SECOND Tarver fight is that the he took a beating the the FIRST. "Shot Roy" callers simply look past that first fight, but for me the explanation of "he barely beat Tarver then got KO'd THEREFORE he's shot" is not good enough, in fact, it's laughable.

Entering the 1st Tarver fight, nobody said a damn thing about Roy looking old, but even back then unbiased experts said non-handpicked Tarver is Roy's most dangerous opponent in years and would most likely give him hell, which he did.

Now if you give credit to Tarver taking the fight to any version of Roy, we can talk. Nobody is untouchable and the first fight was a serious reality check for Roy and his fans despite the excuses AFTER like cutting weight and others which might or might was a real effect at all. What was a real effect was called Antonio Tarver.

Now on topic. The Hopkins who lost to Jones got knocked down multiple times vs. Mercado a year later and wasn't really more than skilled pressure fighter who became good, great then elite with experience - including the Roy fight, his first world-class opponent in his ENTIRE CAREER. Roy on the other hand, being the supremely athletic fighter who was pretty much ready for anything right after the Olympics and beat Toney in IMO his best performance ever just a year after Hopkins, was the prime Roy in there. And green Hopkins took off 4 rounds of prime Roy.

Hopkins' improvement actually took a loooong time, even years later vs. Johnson and John David Jackson he pretty much went in there beating down opposition, the elite skills were forged with the many title defenses. Entering the Tito fight in 2001, he was 2 or 3 full levels better than the Roy version who won 4 rounds back then. It was about 2000 when Hopkins became the supreme fighter neutralizing speed, power and athletic abilities and became the upper elite with his defense, timing, adapting, taking away advantages and turning any fight into his kind of physical/skilled battle.

Back to Tarver. Antonio, a ****ing anti-Jones monk studying the guy in his revenge-driven years purposefully used Roy's countering-on-the-ropes tactic against him, closing the distance in the corners and not letting Jones getting any air to pull back and land his short hooks. Among many smart tactics, Tarver's work at the ropes helped him making the first fight even, and (I know you're gonna debate it), Calzaghe used that as well, putting his forehead on Roy's closed gloves, not giving him the space which was required to beat the living **** of the Richard "B-Level" Halls at the ropes.

Roy never really changed his style, so if not his punches, his strategy became predictable. So it's safe to say that if Tarver came up with his successful tactics, an A++ strategist like Hopkins would've used the similar stuff back in 2002 as well. I do believe Hopkins (very strong at 175 too) would've found great success at the ropes, and he would've used a hell lot of old school tricks Tarver hasn't even heard before. I do not accept that "Roy was shot because of this and that BECAUSE he didn't put Tarver away, and Hopkins is much better in every area than Tarver, with the ability of applying the same strategy Antonio used in 2003.

So. I do think that in 10 imaginary fights the Hopkins of 2001 is more than capable of winning a few vs. that "prime" Roy.
Click to expand...

Good read, good post

kirk, Feb 15, 2010

#22

Rico Spadafora Master of Chins Full Member

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Mind Reader said: ↑

More of your crazy bull****.... Hill was old as hell? Do you even know how old he was? He was the exact same age as Roy was when in your words Roy was "exposed" by Tarver.... Its funny though you give Hill the benefit of the doubt when it comes to age. Especially since you are still very hard on Roy for getting knocked out at the age of 41.

Did you know that he went the distance with DM 8 months before Roy knocked him out in the 4th with a crushing body shot?... Did you know he also went on to win a Cruiserweight belt after Roy beat him?

Clinton Woods was also a very good fighter.

I can't believe you would bring up Lou Del Vaulle.... Are you serious? Did you even see the fight? Roy beat the **** out of him.
Click to expand...

He was fighting off duty cops and sanitation workers. This is a fact. How do you excuse that? Jones is a Glass Jawed fraud. Always has been and always will be. Oh and was also caught using Anabolic Steroids during this time period.

Rico Spadafora, Feb 15, 2010

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Jorodz watching Gatti Ward 1... Full Member

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Rico Spadafora said: ↑

Hill was old as hell, Grant was awful, Frazier was awful, Hall was a joke, Harmon was awful, Glen Kelly was a sanitation worker for christ sakes, and Woods was exposed as being nothing but a British level fighter. That list is a joke. Not to mention Del Valle put Jones on his ass.

Are you serious trying to act like that was some competition? One guy was an off duty cop and another was a garbage man. :roflatsch
Click to expand...

fact is jones had at least comparable or better resume than hopkins for those years. hopkins is now a legend and roy is a joke? **** that.

Jorodz, Feb 15, 2010

#24
ripcity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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If they came in at their best Jones would win.

ripcity, Feb 15, 2010

#25
loginistooshort Active Member Full Member

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No.

No version of BHop beats Jones. Not even shitty Jones. He isn't aggressive enough.

loginistooshort, Feb 15, 2010

#26

bernie4366 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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No. I think prime RJJ is very possibly the toughest h2h fighter in the history of the sport, and he was still very very good when he first stepped to light heavy. I also don't think he had a soft chin in 1998, imho that is more the result of age and immobility. When you think about it, Tarver hit him absolutely dead flush with that left hand - not many boxers would have been standing up after that - and he also cracked the back of his head very badly when he went down. It took a long beating from Glencoffe before he fell but it was a shot to the back of the head that did it. I think that KO v Tarver gave him some neurological damage. He was able to take plenty of leather from Ruiz, no way would he stand up to that post-Tarver.

bernie4366, Feb 15, 2010

#27
mrtony80 Likes thick chicks Full Member

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No.

mrtony80, Feb 15, 2010

#28
box101 Well-Known Member Full Member

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im firm beliver instyles make fights an roys foot work in those times to good an keeps from in fighting an wins an even at his deteriating state still has beter chance than most think

box101, Feb 15, 2010

#29
Imperial1 VIP Member Full Member

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Rico Spadafora said: ↑

Hill was old as hell, Grant was awful, Frazier was awful, Hall was a joke, Harmon was awful, Glen Kelly was a sanitation worker for christ sakes, and Woods was exposed as being nothing but a British level fighter. That list is a joke. Not to mention Del Valle put Jones on his ass.

Are you serious trying to act like that was some competition? One guy was an off duty cop and another was a garbage man. :roflatsch
Click to expand...

Rico have you stopped stalking Jones ??All you can use is Kelly& Fraizer but stop acting like these guys were bums and your talking about Jones slip against Devalle I love how u exaggerate the truth ..Your a fool and your igrnoarnce is dispalyed in every Jones thread thats posted !

Now go sit in the corner and wait for another thread on Jones so u can spit your glass jaw nonesense because around here thats all your good for !

Imperial1, Feb 15, 2010

#30

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