Does anyone put Canelo over Barrera, Morales & Marquez...?

Canelo is ahead of them.

 

Canelo is also in his twenties. Marquez was just getting started at his age. Canelo has already succeeded in four weight classes.

 

failed drug test... gifted wins.. so no never will be there.

 

Because he wasn't fighting for the IBF belt. As I said.

He did not fight for the IBF belt against GGG. That is why he did not do the second weigh in. Are you seriously arguing about this well known point?

Then Canelo's an idiot and the blame falls on him. However, that's not what I understand from the history of it:

""I'll tell you the truth of what happened," Alvarez said in Spanish through translator Eric Gomez. "Why would I give up the weight? I'm at 154. I'm the 154-pound champion.

"I wouldn't do that. But when the (fight) negotiations started, they wanted me to go to 147. I said that's physically impossible. I couldn't do it. Then they inched up to 150. I said I can't do it, that's impossible. Those days are over. I can't make that weight anymore, I've grown.

"Then they went up to 151. And then finally, so we could make the fight, I said, 'If anything, I'll give up two pounds. I'll go up to 152. I agreed to that. Then they tried to force me to be quiet and not to mention anything that they came up with the weight of 152. And that's why ... I haven't said anything until now.

"They said we were idiots, we were stupid, that we were the ones that wanted the catchweight.""

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...-welterweight-152-pounds-catchweight/2802237/

Yes, that's what I said.

Yeah and if the Marquis of Queensbury hadn't changed the rules of boxing they'd still be pounding each other with sticks and wrestling. Fact is, the rule was changed.

Jacobs didnt want the rehydration clause. Canelo did. The clause advantaged Canelo. Those are the facts.

 

Canelo wasn't the one who got the rule eliminated. Jacobs was. Canelo didn't have any problem complying with the IBF rule, Jacobs did. You're trying to shift the blame from Jacobs to Canelo, when it was Jacobs, not Canelo, who refused to play by the rules that he agreed to vs GGG and after losing anyway, then went on a crusade to somehow get the IBF to cater to him and is own personal inability to keep his weight down after a weigh-in to make the reydration limit causing it to be eliminated in unifications.

You are so concerned about fighters, namely Canelo, using their "power" to gain advantages in Title Fights. Jacobs used his power to go far beyond just demanding a rehydration clause in a negotiation with another fighter for a specific fight. He took it upon himself to convince the IBF to eliminate the rehydration limit because he was either unwilling or unable to make it. That goes far beyond just giving himself an advantage, and as Badbot pointed out, these actions by Jacobs and the IBF led to the situation with Canelo that you are now blaming Canelo for, when it was Jacobs who was the one who through direct appeals to the IBF "negotiated" his way to get the weight advantage he was seeking vs Canelo. The same advantage that you are criticizing Canelo for supposedly insisting on after Jacobs became exempt from having to comply with it.

But you don't seem to have any problem with what Jacobs did, first refusing to comply with the IBF rules vs GGG, forgoing his chance for competing for the IBF Title, which was a choice by Jacobs himself, not his team, which was unexpected as he agreed to do the same day IBF weigh-in when he signed the contract with GGG. At the very least, Jacobs actions thereafter were unprofessional and arguably unfair to GGG. Then after giving up his right to fight for the IBF vs GGG so he could have a functional weight advantage vs GGG, then after losing anyway even with such advantages, he complained to the IBF and went to great lengths to somehow cause the IBF to agree with him and change its rules so that he could have massive weight advantages moving forward, a way for him to get around the rehydration limit that was standard and applied to everyone when fighting for the IBF Title.

Your first problem BCS8 is trying to equate rehydration limits in general to catchweights, specifically the catchweights that Mayweather, Pacquiao and Cotto did to drain fighters and make them unhealthy. Your second problem is trying to ignore what Jacobs did with the IBF getting them to change the rule then fast forward to Canelo - Jacobs and act like Canelo was trying to gain some kind of unfair advantage on Jacobs when all along the IBF rule is to have a same day weigh in and if you can't stay within 10 lbs you can't fight for the title.

Another problem is you keep using Canelo by name as if Canelo himself had something to do with the rehydration limit demands. How do you know it wasn't De La Hoya who insisted on that? You don't. However, on the other side, Jacobs himself specifically was the one who refused to participate in the same day weigh-in after agreeing to it vs GGG. That's all on Jacobs, he was the one trying to gain weight advantages by finding a way around the IBF rule. That's where the problem lies and Jacobs, not Canelo, deserved to be criticized for trying to get around the standard IBF rule and giving himself significant weight advantages in Title fights.

 

On this point BCS8, you are 100% correct and you did well to bring this to Badbot's attention who was believing a myth that was created by Mayweather that Canelo's team had "publicly" made an offer to do a catchweight.

Badbot wasn't able to spot this lie as a Mayweather "trick" that he pulled which directly resulted in the catchweight being "accepted" by the public and not questioned. After all, if Canelo himself wanted it, who could argue against it?

First of all, why would Canelo's team "publicly" make an offer to do a catchweight? Right off the bat, that whole idea sounds fishy, especially with a language barrier. This all stems from an interview in español with Canelo in 2011 when he was asked about fighting Mayweather. Of course he wanted that fight. This was before Mayweather moved up to 154 to fight Cotto. At this time, Mayweather was fighting exclusively at 147. Then the next year Mayweather moved up to 154 to fight Cotto, specifically addressing catchweights in the build-up and how he doesn't do them in the HBO Face-Off, criticized Pac for doing one with Cotto draining him, and said he still considered Cotto an undefeated fighter because catchweights aren't legit.

Then Mayweather pulled the big lie which was that Canelo and his team wanted it to be at a catchweight which is obviously ridiculous, and insulting which is why Canelo said "They" (meaning Mayweather and his team) "said we were idiots, we were stupid, that we were the ones that wanted the catchweight."

BCS8, you correctly informed Badbot about what really happened and that it was all a "Mayweather" trick who lied to the public about Canelo or his team being the ones who demanded the catchweight. In reality, it was Mayweather who insisted on the catchweight, and it's crucial that we all understand this and how this led to the situation we're in now since then Canelo has been constantly accused of making weight demands. When one lie is accepted, then it snowballs into sometjhing bigger and pretty soon you have a brainwashed masses who believe that Canelo isn't a legitimaite great because your still beleiving the lies that Mayweather said about Canelo and his team. When in reality, it was Mayweather who was lying to pull a fast on on everyone when it was he who was scared to fight Canelo straight up and 154 like a real man, instead it was Mayweather who demanded the catchweight which tainted the match, then lied about it, so he wouldn't be considered a hyprocrit after what he said about Pac and Cotto and how he doesn't do catchweights.

BCS8, you almost fell for Floyd's trick that he pulled on the public when he tried to con the public into believing the lie that Canelo had offered the catchweight. When Badbot threw that at you, you didn't flinch though. You knew better. So BCS8, you're spot on about what really happened with Mayweather and Canelo, and Badbot is correct regarding Jacobs the IBF and the rehydration clause problem he created.

 

Jacobs skipped the second day weigh in, thats why the IBF belt was not on the line. Not because Jacobs had said beforehand that he was not interested in the belt.

It´s why the IBF changed it´s rules in regard to mandatories. They did not want another boxer to cheat their opponent like that.

And Canelo´s team did in fact make a public statement abut a catchweight. Floyds team then took them up on the offer.
It was later that Canelo´s side started complaining.

 

Oh really. Provide the evidence of Canelo's team's public statement about declaring that they wanted to fight Mayweather at a catchweight. Lets get to the bottom of this once and for all.

 

lol Mayweather wanted the fight at 147 and both sides eventually agreed to 152. Alvarez said making the weight was no problem and actually would be an advantage because he would be faster. Incidentally, it was one pound less than his previous weigh-in weight. Now the loss shouldn’t count because Alvarez was drained. I read some ridiculous stuff on here but I must admit that you win the award with your Alvarez fan-boyism. As to the thread question, not yet but Alvarez still has time to make his case.

 

No, and for all the reasons already listed

 

Quotes. I have never seen this.

I say you're mistaken. I don't find this anywhere. The IBF dropped the second weigh in because its own champions were at a disadvantage when competeing for unified belts.

De la Hoya is Canelo's manager. If he does stuff then Canelo agrees with it. If he didn't like it he could have spoken up.

 

You saying Canelo said this doesn't make it true, and the claim made by Badbot wasn't that Canelo himself said it, but rahter that his "team" made a public statement declaring that they wanted to fight Mayweather at a catchweight. I am waiting to see if Badbot's has any evidence to back his claim.

I've heard plenty of people over the years say Canelo said something, without having any proof that he actually said it. If you're referring to when Canelo was asked about fighting Mayweather in the 2011 interview in español, him saying he was interested in fighting Mayweather doesn't equate to him wanting saying that he wanted it to be at a catchweight. Mayweather clearly tried to exploit the language barrier by claiming Canelo or his team said things that they never said, so that Mayweather could claim he wasn't the one who wanted the catchweight. It makes no sense whatsoever for Canelo to want to fight Mayweather at a catchweight, especially after Mayweather moved up to 154 to fight Cotto and insisted the fight be at 154 and not a catchweight.

In 2011 when Canelo was asked about fighting Mayweather, Mayweather was not viewed as a 154-lb fighter at that time, and given how accepted catchweights were becoming with fights like Pac vs Cotto being 145, Mayweather Marquez, etc it would make sense that an interviewer would ask him about potentially fighting Mayweather at a catchweight given that Mayweather was fighting a weight class below. If Canelo refused to consider a catchweight with Mayweather if asked about one, then he would run the risk of losing out on the possibility of fighting Mayweather, but in no way shape or form would Canelo saying back in 2011 that he was interested in fighting Mayweather equate to Canelo or his team specifically wanting or requesting the fight be at a catchweight, as was claimed by Mayweather and still believed to this day by many despite no evidence to back such a claim. You obviously were fooled by the Mayweather trick. BCS8 wasn't, and I'm glad he addressed it.

Of course Mayweather wanted the fight at 147. Of course Canelo wanted the fight at 154. The problem is Mayweather would'nt agree to fight him at 154, taht's the point. So he created a big lie about how Canelo or his team were the ones who wanted the catchweight which is obviously ridiculous, but you still believe it so you clearly fell for Mayweather's trick.

So, you're really reaching here trying to twist what I'm saying. The idea that the loss shouldn't count is a little bit of an exaggeration. BCS8 claimed that the win was tainted to the catchweight, which I agreed with, that's different than the loss shouldn't count. The argument I made was that we can play this game with any fighter. This topic is about comparing Canelo to All-Time greats like Barrea, Morales Marquez or Pacquiao. I pointed out how Canelo has a much better record and winning % than these legends. To which i was countered by Canelo detractors about how some of Canelo's wins "shouldn't count" because he got gift decisions, or made unfair weight demands or whatever the case may be. Now you're claiming that it's me who argued Mayweather's win shouldn't count. That was merely a retort to those who claimed that some of Canelo's wins shouldn't count, or that he should really have more losses than he does. Anotherwords that he should be penalized when compared to Barrera, Morales, Marquez or Pacquiao for supposed getting advantages. I pointed out that Pacquiao drained Cotto, so if you're going to argue that some of Canelo's wins shouldn't count, you have to also apply that same logic to pacquiao or Mayweather or other fighters like Cotto who actually drained fighters with catchweights.

You claiming that these counter arguments to Canelo detractors are evidence of my fanboyism. That's ironic because I am simply using the same logic that's being applied to Canelo to Pacquiao or other fighters who don't get called out for the bad stuff they did like draining fighters, while at the same time Canelo gets accused of draining fighters when, unlike Mayweather, Pacquiao, Cotto, etc he didn't engage int he kind of weight games and tricks to gain advantages that they did, even though he gets accused of that. It's really just a matter of calling out BS when people make arguments without any factual basis, and applying the same criticisms people make to Canelo to other legends who have been able to get away with doing much worse things to opponents than Canelo ever did. And it really all starts with Mayweather and the manipulative lie he told about how Canelo or his team wanted the catchweight. This led us to the situation we are in now with people like yourself fed lies and believing things that are not real to argue that Canelo isn't a legitmiate great or shouldn't be compared to past greats on the merits like record, winning % etc.

 

I think your 10000 word essay posts defending Canelo every time somebody says anything negative about him are evidence enough

 

Canelo haters: Canelo is a weight bully, its not fair he weighs more than 10 lbs over the weight limit.

Also Canelo haters: Its not fair that Canelo and Jacobs can't weigh in more than 10 lbs over the weight limit.