Does anyone still have Dempsey as a top ten heavy? Top 15?

If you are saying that Dempsey could have made better use of his time as champion, then I am not going to contradict you.

The high point of George Godfrey's career, was probably after Gene Tunney retired.

The best way to do right by him, would not have been to give him a title shot against Dempsey, but to give him a place in the tournament to decide Tunney's successor.

It is hard to put my finger on when Kid Norfolk's case was best, because he never stayed in one weight class for very long.

Outside of Wills himself, the black contender who had the strongest claim for a shot at Dempsey, was probably Big Bill Tate.

 

Only Johnson from the sport’s beginning to 1937 received a title shot from a white champion (that champion was Canadian by the way).

Dempsey pursued a fight with Wills an unheard of activity by a worlds heavyweight champion and they signed to fight only to see the bout fall through. Later in 1930 Dempsey was sued for breach of contract but Dempsey was the lawsuit.

 

What has mid teens Langford or a 1917 fight with Meehan got to do with me calling out your claim Langford was a viable challenger for Dempseys title?

 

Not in any way his fault. In those days the challenger pursued the champion yet Dempsey went out on his own to find a promoter so he could face Wills only to see the bout fall through due to a lack of financing. On the other side of the coin Wills was exactly the type opponent Dempsey loved to fight Big and immobile. Bout would not have lasted three rounds.

 

I didnt say it was his fault, I said it impacts on his ranking as he didnt establish himself as the best HW during his reign. As in, he would rank higher if he fought and beat Wills.

I dont blame Wlad for not fighting Vitali. As the next best HW from his era/prime, he'd rank higher if he fought and beat him.

 

I sometimes think that the best white contenders who don't get a title shot, in an era when the color line is in force, tend to get overlooked.

Nobody ever seems to ask why Charley Weinert or Melio Bettina didn't get a title shot.

 

That’s misrepresenting what I said. I said in his career. I’m not talking about 1925 Langford.

 

No historian historically lowered Dempseys ranking due to not facing Wills since they realized it was pretty much beyond Dempseys control. Also it was obvious that Dempsey was head and shoulders above any other challenger including Wills. The idea that you pull Dempsey out of a top ten because he did not fight an inferior opponent due to societies constraints is ridiculous and totally revisionist. Dempsey from a talent standpoint was head and shoulders above both Frazier and Marciano who over time and due to revisionism are rated over him. The chasm in ability, speed and athleticism favors Dempsey by a significant margin.

 

I haven't pulled Dempsey out of my top 10. If he'd have beaten a prime Wills, he may have squeaked in it.

 

No it isnt. You responded to a post about contenders from Dempsey's title reign by referencing Langford. I called you out on it and you responded by quoting 3 wins Langford had in 1920. I explained to you why Langford wasnt a viable challenger for Dempseys title and you posted a reply about mid teens Langford.

 

Dempsey actively pursued the fight and signed to fight Wills in 1925. The bout fell through due to lack of financing. Wills chances of beating Dempsey were slim to none. Historically Dempseys all time status was never lowered due to this bout not occurring. American society would not allow a black opponent to fight for the heavyweight title especially after the Johnson Jeffries aftermath. This only changed 12 years later when Louis fought Braddock.

 

“
Godfrey, Norfolk, Langford, McVea, Jeff Clark...
Yes, some wouldve made more sense pretitle.”

^alluding to his entire career rather than a convenient box of his title reign (in order to give him excuses)

 

There were better one that that.

 

Why did you mention Langfords wins in 1920 then?

 

Ok.

I rank Dempsey lower than I would had he fought and beaten a prime Wills. I dont give any other fighters credit for fights they didnt have either.