Does Cleveland Williams hit hard or really hard?

The doctor did initially say that Williams would make a full recovery and could be back in the ring in six months, but he was wrong. Within a few weeks Williams required a fresh round of surgery on his damaged kidney and by that time the prognosis was much less cheerful - "I'm confident he will return to normal health but I don't know if he will be strong enough to take the punishment required of a heavyweight championship contender."

Six months after his gunshot wound - when the doctor had originally hoped he might be fighting again - Williams was described as a shadow of his old self, still unable to lift any significant weight without pain.

https://ibb.co/jRWwtbW

 

Which is Satterfield's best ko, Bob Baker? If your criteria is named/ranked fighter ko'd ,how many do you need?
How many do;
Sheppard
Shavers
Morrison
Gomez
Ruddock
Tua

Have?

 

The criteria I use is: How many times he koed someone with one punch ?
For example, Mas Baer, he was definitely a lesser puncher than Marciano, or Foreman, and this is proven not by the number of stoppages they got, but how did that happen, I don´t see Baer stopping someone like George did with Cooney.

 

12. Cleveland Williams: The fighter they called “The Big Cat” stretched no fewer than fifty-eight men. Sonny Liston, who knew a thing or two about power, dubbed him the hardest puncher he’d ever faced.

 

And this has been done to death here. Some guys just like a big muscular body. I get it. Show me how Williams performances post gunshot were any worse than they were pre gunshot. You cant because he continued on in the same fashion, beating third and fourth tier opponents and losing clearly to second and first rate opponents. And as for how he got his rating, as has been said before ad naseum despite enamored fanboys more impressed with a physique than results the fact remains that Williams popped into the ratings by beating Billy Daniels and Alex Miteff, two guys who would only be rated for the briefest of times and two guys who werent exactly stellar competition. Then Williams moves up in the ratings without having to face any other rated opponents just prior to getting shot. Call me skeptical but thats not exactly proof that the guy was suddenly entering his prime at 31 and with 15 years and over 70 fights under his belt. Its basically slipping into the ratings through the backdoor and then mysteriously moving up without doing anything to attain those rankings or keep them. Again, show me in terms of results how his career trajectory changed after being shot or how his performances changed because prior to getting shot I see a big stiff guy beating setups but never able to beat the best fighters he faced and doing exactly the same after he was shot. When you can count the number of ranked fighters he beat much less stopped on one hand and not use all of your fingers PRIOR to being shot dont tell me getting shot is why he suddenly couldnt win the big ones.

 

Hitting a heavy bag is quite literally the most objective way to measure raw power.

"Asking who was the best guy he KOd" only tells you how effective a fighter is at delivering their power.

Those are two different things: how much raw power someone has vs how well they can punch consistently and land on skilled opponents. He objectively hit hard based on the sheer number of brutal KOs, but wasn't particularly effective at delivering that power on a consistent basis.

 

Interestingly Liston said Dejohn was the second hardest puncher he faced. I was fairly surprised, expecting him to say Valdez.

 

It's funny, you accuse people of overrating Williams, while simultaneously making him out to be a superman who can shake off critical wounds like they're nothing, and come back from the dead after dying on the operating table six times.

I bet it's just a coincidence that right when Williams got shot, he decided to partake in a diet that made him lose 60 pounds.

 

This has to be one of the most disingenuous posts out there.

 

Roy Harris (who fought Sonny Liston and sparred with Cleveland Williams),"my toughest opponent and most dangerous was when I sparred with Cleveland williams."http://www.doghouseboxing.com/Ken/Hissner030911.htm

"But at one point in his career, he would have spelled real problems for Ali, because at his height as a puncher, Cleveland Williams hit harder than Liston. Before he got shot, the man was awesome. But afterwards, he wasn't much of a fighter. " Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=DfcPAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT134&lpg=PT134&dq="williams+hit+harder+than+liston"&source=bl&ots=U_vhYf34f8&sig=ACfU3U0-9tFME4JqtaE-xx34tjfj1d-8XA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqlYTguIHqAhUeRDABHQPoDhYQ6AEwAXoECAMQAQ

Ernie Terrell (Who fought Williams twice and sparred with Liston)
His toughest opponent: Cleveland Williams
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-pleAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vVINAAAAIBAJ&pg=4798,539251&dq=&hl=en
:"He was the strongest fighter I ever fought"
http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/6048-ernie-terrell-chicagos-heavyweight-champion
"His left hook is poison."
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Sy8_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=9lAMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3337,4585601&dq=&hl=en
"I fought Williams (Cassius Clay's Monday night victim Cleveland Williams twice and I thought that man hit harder than even Liston. But the years were very much on Clay's side." Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/57503132/calgary-herald/

Sonny Liston:......"Williams hit very hard and he was quick"
"He hit as hard as I could."

https://books.google.com/books?id=9...hUKEwjz2eGWs7XpAhWIg-AKHZlGCKgQ6AEwAHoECAoQAQ

"two of William's losses came at the hands of Liston, who has said Williams was the hardest puncher he has ever met." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/51090697/sioux-city-journal/

"Williams hit Liston with a left hook that would have finished any other man It would have torn some fighters heads off." https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54152307/fort-lauderdale-news

"Asked to compare Clay and Williams, Daniels said Monday: There's no comparison. Williams hits much harder. I'd fight Clay every night in the week. But that Williams man, he's a load of dynamite." Article clipped from The Salt Lake Tribune - Newspapers.com

Cleveland (Big Cat) Williams has the punch. Some say he hits harder than Sonny Liston. Others go further and claim the Big Cat can hit a man with more force than Joe Louis.

"The big cat is credited with breaking one man's back with a blow to the midsection, punishing Billy Daniels so badly that Daniels has never been the same fighter since, and hitting young Jack Johnson so hard that a blood vessel ruptured in Johnson's forehead."

Article clipped from Carlsbad Current-Argus - Newspapers.com

Ending the career of Tommy Fields with a terrific beating April 7, 1964. Henry Armstrong said Fields was one of the best defensive fighters he had ever seen. Handing Sonny Banks such a merciless beating July' 21, 1964. that might have been responsible for Banks death in his next fight.

Bill Davee, who was in Williams' corner, said Williams gave Banks a murderous beating for five rounds, but did not finish him. Davee said he told Williams after the fifth to finish Banks for his (Banks) own good. Williams knocked him out in the sixth.

Article clipped from The York Dispatch - Newspapers.com

"Curley Lee suffering from incurable brain damage incurred in the Cleveland Williams bout went to a life of crime and murder and is serving time in Napa's hospital for the criminally insane." Fallen Copper - Chap Riese - Google Books

The knockout had the crowd' in stitches. Curley got knocked so high in the air he was horizontal when he crashed to the floor. Also unconscious. Another 'couple of feet and he might have escaped the gravitational and been up there yet. He was out for 20 minutes. They took him to the hospital where they shone lights in his eyes and "recommended a good night's sleep. Curley had already had one. When he got back to L.A.. he thought perhaps he had a bad head cold because every time he blew his nose it brought blood. He had the sensation his eyes were trying to pull out of his head.

He called on his doctor, Wells E. A. Forde, who noticed little things like the fact the inside of Curley's right shoe was wearing out faster than the outside. For some reason, Curley was dragging his right foot.

He sent him to the Queen of Angels Hospital where the reason turned out to be a blood clot on the brain.

Like a lot of others, before him. Curley Lee, occupation prizefighter, was the victim of an industrial accidental - a right to the jaw.

The Doctor Was Stunned It is Curley's recollection the sovereign state of Texas paid for the electro-encephalogram which turned up "disorganization and slowing in the left parietal area a focal 'disturbance in the left parietal area." But the treatment consisted of the prescription: "You better take it easy, kid and, by the way, get used to that headache." Barely .18 months later, Dr. Forde was shocked when he picked up a paper to see where Curley was booked in for a fight at the Olympic Auditorium. He fired off a letter to the boxing commission.

"To me it would seem unthinkable that any consideration should ever be given him for subsequent boxing." He recommended a simple test: "Shake hands with Curley," he urged. His position was, a man too weak to shake hands shouldn't be asked to punch with them. The commission denied Curley a license. Curley went back to stacking potatoes. But lately, even this has become difficult. Curley has taken to suffering blackouts on the street and long red-light trips to receiving hospital where attendants first suspect drunkenness and then detect a form of epilepsy. Either way, there's not much they can do about it.

Curley is just another piece of boxing's flotsam. The walking wounded you see in the foyer any arena selling programs, cadging tickets or borrowing money. It's difficult to find any. one to take the responsibility. But I noticed in the paper the other day where the manager Cleveland Williams was complaining that the top name fighters in the country "would rather go hungry than get in the ring, with my fighter." I should hope so. It's better to be hungry than fed intravenously.
The Spokesman-Review - Google News Archive Search

 

When this subject comes up it is invariably you mentioning ,"the big muscular body".I'm not impressed by physiques, having boxed at a very low level for nearly 2 decades,I'm very aware body shapes do not indicate power or talent.
Three of my favourite punchers,Bob Foster,Felix Trinidad and Alexis Arguello were far from Adonis types, as was Ray Robinson,an all time puncher.
Anyone who knows anything about boxing knows that punchers come in all shapes and sizes.
How many of those rated guys Williams did not fight in 62 and 63 were willing to fight him?
Would Patterson ,Johansson,Cleroux,London,Mildenberger ,have entertained sharing a ring with him?
I stated Williams was mid prime when he was shot and I stand by that ,he was being lined up for a title shot and was enjoying his highest ranking ever.
I never stated his being shot was why he couldn't win the big ones,but I'm convinced he was never the same man after he WAS shot and I'm also convinced 99.9% of posters on this, or any other sensible boxing forum would agree with me!
Talking about him making a complete recovery after his operations,[ there were 4 of them], is just so much horse****!
You've made some statements here ,and made them as though they are incontrovertible facts instead of just your opinion , a regular habit of yours.

I don't think Williams was stiff in the ring,he looks pretty fluid for a big guy to me.as fluid as his comparable sized contemporaries like Terrell,Liston,Valdes,DeJohn.
I've given 4 or 5 examples of big punchers who do not have many names on their ko record,and I don't believe ,by any means that is the only criteria to measure a fighters power. .

You talk about a waste of time ,debating whether Williams was the same after his shooting,is imo the very definition of that expression.
I'd wager 99.9% of posters on this or any other sensible forum would dismiss that claim out of hand.

You and I usually end up in a row so I'm ending this here with both of us having widely divergent opinions.
When this thread came up I expected you to rise to the fly,I've never read a word from you that wasn't totally negative about Williams,rather similar to your opinion of Jack Dempsey. So let's just agree to differ on this.

 

Because he was jacked. Big muscles and all.

 

Yes. He goes crazy when he sees a Williams, Dempsey thread, and all common sense goes out the window with him.

Literally not one person argued a prime Williams, would've beaten Ali, yet here he is spouting this drivel.