Does Cleveland Williams hit hard or really hard?

Attributing to others one's own latent desires is a pretty common failing.

 

As a mere boxing fan , I've often wondered what makes a historian?
What qualifies someone to be classified as such?
Writing a book on boxing?
Would that qualify you?
Bert Sugar wrote several,was he a historian?
How about Joyce Carol Oats?
Is she a boxing historian?
Nick Tosches?
Shaun Assael?
Geoffrey C Ward?
Would writing one book on boxing qualify you as a historian,or would you need to have written several ?
Would the type of book be crucial,for example Adam Pollack,who to me ,writes excellent biographies of heavyweight champions,would he be classed as a historian, or a biographer?
Is the quality of the book paramount and,if it is,who is to decide the quality?
What's the difference between a boxing historian ,a boxing author, and a boxing archivist?
Can we define them or is it all subjective, just one man's opinion about another's work?
I buy quite a few boxing books,my own current favourites are;
Adam Pollack .
Springs Toledo.
Clay Moyle.
Favourites from the past include
W C Heinz.
H McIllvanney.
Jerry Izenberg.
George Kimball.
Reg Gutteridge
Etc.
All authors as well as boxing scribes.
Boxing scribes;
Mike Katz
Bob Waters
Jimmy Cannon
Red Smith .
Etc
Maybe some one more knowledgeable than myself can provide a satisfactory definition?

 

Well I'm sure he got sonny Liston s respect in those fights, so very hard.

 

Very bizarre indeed, Mac!

 

Homoerotic undertones permeate this thread like the bright sunshine permeates my East facing bedroom on a fine summer's morning, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

Yeah, at #10 and stayed there for a year, never climbing higher than #8. So some here think he can justifiably say that Patterson ducked him because Patterson, having just beaten his #1 contender when Williams was unrated and just three weeks later took more money than he was being offered for any other challenger to take a gimme against the Olympic champion when Williams was still unrated. Wanna compare Williams ratings against the ratings of the guys Patterson defended against?

Jackson #1 vs Williams unranked
Rademacher unranked vs Williams unranked
Roy Harris #3 vs Williams #8
London #9 vs Williams unranked
Ingemar Johansson #1 vs Williams unranked
Johansson #3 vs Williams unranked
McNeeley unranked vs Williams #6
Liston #1 vs Williams #5

So the ONLY time Patterson defended against someone ranked lower than Williams was when he fought McNeeley and he was already signed at that point to face Liston which is why the McNeeley fight was shown as a double header with the Liston-Westphal fight to hype up their big ballpark title fight in the summer. So people complaining that Patterson ducked Williams simply either dont know what they are talking about or just have their heads up their asses.

 

Let me give you an example of where my opinions come from.

Let's start with Omelio Agramonte who Big Cat went the distance in his win in Agramonts second to last fight, Agramonte was already stopped by Jersey Joe Walcott, Pat Cominsky, Kid Tunero, Mario Ochoa, Bob Baker and in his last fight to Nino Valdes.

Then Frankie Dainels, who Big Cat went the distance within his win, FD was already ko'd by Bob Murphy, Bob Satterfield, Joe Dorsey, Dick Finley Loyd Marshall, and after Big Cat KO'd by Liston and Chuvalo and Terrell.

Wayne Bethea Big Cat beat distance but Bethea who was already stopped by Ali was stopped in 3 by Karl Mildenberger 7 months later in the same year.

Big Cat had a good win over Ernie Terrell tko which is his best win but lost to Terrel in the rematch.

Bob Satterfield was hot and cold and fought heavyweights and light heavies had some excellent Heavyweight scalps Bob Baker, Nino Valdes, Big Cat WIlliams, etc.
but was also stopped by Jake LaMotta, Archie Moore, Rex Layne, Sam Barodi, Clarence Henry, Ezzard Charles among others.

I am not saying I would like to get hit by Williams or that he had no power but as far as him proving any elite status as a puncher his record in the professional ring does not indicate it by his actual ring results.

Shavers had some serious KO's and without going into detail (Ken Norton) so did some of the other names Morrison (Rudduck), etc., for me BIG Cat may have been a hellacious sparring partner, but it did not show up in the professional boxing ring where we would judge it.

 

Refer to the original post jackass. Jesus, as if I couldnt predict youd be on here gobbling Williams' knob. Supposing Williams could be ranked in the upper 15% percentile of punchers without ever proving it in the ring is beyond ridiculous and yes, tantamount to saying he is a legendary or all time great puncher. Its ****ing idiocy to say a guy whose best KO was possibly Alex Miteff was a great puncher. And yeah, I do think you are obsessed with Williams for nothing more than his looks. Wanna know why? Of all of the film that you could have possibly seen he wins exactly three matches. Wiley, whose career record is 1-17-3, Herring, whose career record is 27-6 but who lost to every decent fighter he faced, and Billy Daniels whos career record is 23-22-4. And yet you want to wax poetic about his speed, his defense, his power, etc etc. with literally zero results to show for it. What? Is that he bothered Liston for one round before Liston started throwing punches and stopped him? Was being a punching bag for Ali? Plodding around the ring in a hug fest with Chuvalo? Hell be barely beat Daniels. And I know I know, you love to read the reports of his fights against guys like Machen and Mac Foster and take every hint of the miniscule success he briefly had in those fights as some clue of greatness but youve never seen those fights and you consistently blow what little success (real or imagined) he had in those fights WAY out of proportion. So maybe thats it. Maybe its not his physique you are attracted to but some imagined ability to project on to him that he didnt have based on a misreading of the reports. Either way, Ive seen more of the man than you have (or any of these other clowns posting about him) and read more about him than you have so one of us is a bit better to judge while the other simply putting him on a pedestal despite his lack of accomplishments.

 

I asked an open ended question,namely would ;
Patterson
Cleroux
Mildenberger
Johansson
Be prepared to face Williams?
That is rather different to stating Patterson ducked him,but I'm confident in my own mind that D'Amato would never have allowed Floyd near the Big Cat.
I'd also pick Williams to beat;
Mildenberger
Cleroux
Johansson.
I think posters would be less inclined to jump on you if you could manage to add a smidgeon of humility and politeness to the."pearls of wisdom," you grace us mere mortals with, but that's you isn't it.

Patterson fought McNeeley on Dec 4th 1961.
Liston fought Westphal on the same date.
I don't believe the Patterson defence against Liston was confirmed until the 16th of March 1962. That's a gap of 3 months, before the fight was officially on.


Referring to posters as "gobbling,Williams knob",and," heads up asses," coupled with your previous references to Williams physique would seem to suggest you are the one obsessed with Williams body , not all ,or indeed any of us.

 

Shavers notable kos are Ellis and Norton ,both on the way out.

Daniels also went the distance with;
Satterfield ,as well as Moore,and Baker.
Agramonte went the distance with;
Baker
Louis x2
Henry x2
I feel you are being a trifle," selective ,"with your stats.

 

Did you purposely lie or simply not know Williams was ranked during Patterson's reign?

It's one or the other.

 

Sheer poetry Greg. Keats would be proud.

If I may....

And...in another bedroom, in another house, warmed by that same rising Sun, someone lays on their bed, wistfully staring at their full body poster of The Big Cat affixed to their wall.

Such is a morning glory!

 

Yep, it can ONLY be either A) or B).

Check and Maaatte!!

However, I think someone will reply with their own, oft used, customised option C) - an unhinged, tangential, abusive rant.

 

I see a lot of posts in this thread that say ‘so-and-so beat Williams therefore Williams didn’t hit hard.’

Getting beat isn’t a measure of how hard a fighter hits. It can be assessed in discussing his chin, his durability, his defense, his overall ability … but not his punching power.

Being a good puncher doesn’t mean a fighter stops everyone they get in the ring with. It doesn’t mean they’re better than every fighter they face. Foreman was a hard puncher but he lost some fights. Shavers too. Tyson of course.

Having power doesn’t mean a fighter is going to land that punch, or if he does that he’s going to finish the opponent.

There’s a real disconnect going on here.

 

Which is exactly why I questioned the importance of how hard a guy could hit a heavy bag is. If somebody can supposedly punch so hard but cant ever land that punch what is the point of dwelling on what is in practice a completely meaningless statistic for that person? And frankly, your argument and some of the others on here suppose that Williams maybe was this monsterous puncher but what, failed to land against anyone worth a ****, even the ones with less than granite chins? Come on. Get real. The fact remains the guy never proved this supposed power. And Im sorry but the ridiculous argument that his career trajectory suddenly changed after being shot doesnt wash. The guy wasnt doing anything different after that he was before and frankly to get down to brass tacks he doesnt fight any different after being shot than he did just before barring the usual aging of a fighter who was now 31, had been a pro 15 years, and had upwards of 70 fights under his belt.