Does Dempsey get a rough ride over the colour line?

I thought your first post was:

It very unfair to Wills, with his Coloured Championship domination, his 17 fight series (correct me on the number) with 1 of the great HWs in LAngford, wins over great blk and white contenders alike. To insinuate his best wins were over Dempsey left overs and to insinuate he wasn't good enough to beat a Dempsey victim, despite the fact you knew full well Wills was 37 and nigh on shot at that time, is pretty disingenous

And yes I agree with HGrant that the fastest fighters of all time have been black fighters, I fail to see the controversy in that statement. Who are your fastest of all time? I think accusing another of racism because of that conclusion is pretty unfair, regardless of whether McGrain doesn't agree with the notion

And as for the Nazi Swastika, come on you know its just Mendoza's duvet cover :hey

 

Jack Johnson himself said Greb was the fastest fighter he ever saw. I suppose Corbett, Pep, Calzaghe, and Leonard could not be among the fastest fighters of all time, because they were white?

 

We have no video footage of Greb and the Corbett footage doesnt look fast

From the video footage we have, which white fighters are quicker than:

Jones Jr,
Ali
Ray Leonard,
Meldrick Taylor
Zab Judah
Patterson
Tyson
Mayweather
HEarns

Pacquaio/Camacho is the only none blk fighter who has a chance of splitting those men with speed. Pep, Calzaghe, and B Leonard are not close

 

I know it's a bit of a dip in murky waters, but I have to agree with PP that the most explosive fighters often is/have been black. This seems to be the case for several other sports as well. In possible the most "explosive" sport there is, sprinting, black sprinters' domination is overwhelming.

 

The black contenders of Dempsey's time, outside of Kid Norfolk, weren't necessarily among the fastest though. Godfrey was rather methodical and slow, while Wills in his mid 30's had slowed down from his younger self.

In my opinion, we should not act like Dempsey never facing Wills was no big deal, because it was. But it doesn't mean Dempsey's whole career should be cast aside either.

 

I actually said two of Will's biggest wins were over Firpo and Fulton,that is obviously not the same as saying Will's best wins ,you rang that one a bit.The implication that blacks have intrinsically faster handspeed ,because of their complexion is nonsense, in any case Grant was referring specifically to heavy,and Light heavy wieghts ,and ,as Klompton pointed out Harry Greb is considered to have been extremely fast of hand and foot ,and he met with considerable success at both these weights.Likewise Conn
Grant played the racist card ,because I quoted Goebbels, I simply returned fire.
I dont suggest that you are racist because you posted a Swastika,I think the inference is that the poster you were replying to, is rather more enamoured of the paler complexion, than the sepia one.
I do think you were unnecessarily personal and abusive towards Bienstock,on reflection you might too.
I mentioned Wills age ,but lets not forget that Godfrey,whom Sharkey handily beat was only 29,Godfrey is another Dempsey is accused of ducking.
Its easy to look back nearly a century later and criticize fighters ,but the mores and perceived rules of those days were totally at variance with the present.
How much stick does Jeffries get for not fighting black challengers?
The guy was applauded in his time for not risking it.

The other thread about Dempsey and Wills, explored whether Wills was clearly the standout challenger for Dempsey's reign ,I beleive the results of the posts left things far from clear.
Wills should have got his shot, no argument ,but he did not help his case in later years by fighting knockovers,and refusing to meet Tunney for a title shot at Dempsey.I beleive his manager outsmarted himself a bit there.

Dempsey ko Wills 7rds

 

Not really the point GA, 1 poster likened a fellow poster to a Nazi for suggesting intrinsically blacks have more handspeed. Hence me bringing up the above point.

Research shows us certain people of West African decent have higher percentage of fast twitch muscle fibres, responsible for fast explosive movements. Interesting though certain people from East African decent have very low levels of fast twitch fibres

 

I've seen the statement made before in a Dempsey-related thread though. I thought I'd mention that Wills and Godfrey were certainly not among the fastest heavyweights.

The fastest fighters may well have been African American, but this doesn't necessarily mean they are all faster, obviously. The above statement seems to indicate that. Hector Camacho is up there with anybody and a prime Pep had very fast feet/reflexes. He looks pretty fast against Gil Cadilli even in his mid 30's.

 

1. Come on Mcvey I think you knew what you were doing with the construct of that post, selective facts are no less biased, something I'm guilty of at times too

2. 'The implication that blacks have intrinsically faster handspeed ,because of their complexion is nonsense' - I agree, however certain blacks of West African decent intrinsically have higher twitch muscle fibres making them faster more explosive athletes and yes faster punchers. Whats more blacks of slave origins have been bred from the strongest slaves to give a super slave if you like. The weak slaves often didn't survive or weren't bred together.

3. I don't disagree that their aren't fast white fighters, I just don't see them being as fast as the fastest blk fighters. Just like there is the French white kid who can do sub-10 seconds, he still can't match the speed of the Bolt's, Powell's, Gaye's

4. I didn't actually see Grant playing the race card in this thread

5. The inference is our dyslexic friend has far right symapthies, that degree of far right is an exageration, but not too far from the truth

6. Perhaps thats my argumentive nature and perhaps overly harsh, but I don't take kindly to the insults and accusations

7. Sharkey is without a doubt an excellent scalp. But Sharkey beating Wills certainly doesnt prove Dempsey would, neither does Sharkey beating Godfrey

8. You will be better versed than myself on the line 'the only time a white champion envokes the color line is to duck a black boxer'. While some in the media may have called the color line a good thing, it was out of fear of the losing the title

9. Really, theres a good case for him being no1 from 1914 onwards is there not? If the Colored Title was the WBA and the World Title was the WBC, there would be a big debate on who was no1 during the period. We're now having this debate retrospectively

10. Wills had already won a why should he fight another to be ducked again? What we read in the papers ofcourse is not always true, did Wills really avoid Tunney, maybe or maybe thats the line Tunney's management took

11. Hard to make a prediction on a man we've never seen fight near his prime. Wills could have been as good as Ali or only the level of a Tony Tucker, we'll never know now. Its fair to say hes certainly at least a level above the big men of the time in Willard and Firpo

 

A very reasonable statement.