Does Hagler losing to Leonard hurt his legacy?

I thought Leonard won the fight clearly, and Hagler actually seemed tentative in there, especially in the early rounds.

 

If you're comparing Hagler with the greatest middleweights of all time, then it hurts his standing a little bit in that conversation. Monzon edges Hagler in my own list because of the way they finished their careers. Monzon 15-0 in title fights and 83 fights unbeaten over the last 13 years of his career; Hagler 13-1-1 in title fights and unbeaten for over 10 years but lost his final fight against his greatest rival - Monzon won his final fight against his own great rival in Valdez. That's about the only thing that separates them, although Hagler was slightly more dominant in terms of KOs in title defenses so there's that still an argument the other way. The single title loss is a blot though on an otherwise near-spotless title reign. So, in that context, yes, it does hurts his legacy.

What I think has maintained and maybe improved his standing over the subsequent years is that he never fought again after the Leonard fight. He was on the slide with his performance against Mugabi in '86 (the one that gave Leonard the courage to step back in the ring and face Hagler) and the fight with Leonard a year later probably confirmed that he was past his best. Any more fights after that would likely have damaged his legacy so stepping away when he did and being out of the ring for over 30 years now has helped repair any perceived damage at the time of the fight and has helped solidify his reputation as one of the all-time middleweight greats.

When you also consider that the fight was close and the decision was controversial and that fight fans are still to this day debating that decision, the damage that defeat might have done to his legacy is almost completely eradicated.

Almost.

 

He won the fight.
How many things did he have to agree to just to make the fight?
He was also done a year before this fight.

 

This is it in a nutshell. For over a decade i have preached that Hagler, despite his great versatility can get lost on the biggest stage against higher shelf intelligent opponents. His career stage matters not as Leonard had much more against him. He has trouble adapting. Sure, he can come into rematches and rectify things in a big big way but one has to be able to do it in the heat of battle.

The loss opens up questions as to how he would do against other ATG's, ones that were good enough to provide some riddles to solve.

Here's a bombshell - i believe Haglers corner were a long way below top shelf comparative to other top corners. I think they were part of the problem. I believe he did as good as he did in spite of them. He was just that talented a fighter. Does one think a Futch, Benton or Dundee would have let Hagler come out orthodox trying to box a slickster who was a natural welterweight and had barely fought in 5 years? Not a chance.

Overall standing Hagler is still right up there but i think the loss drops him below a guy like Monzon who by contrast went out beating the second best middle in good style. H2H it opens up a few questions as i said above.

 

does leonard's ko loss to camacho hurt his legacy?

 

Like it or not, Hagler lost for both the reasons you stated AND the reasons I stated. If anyone, and I do mean ANYONE, makes an attempt to imply that Hagler wasn't physically diminished (and obviously moreso than Lenny was as per his managing a draw, albeit controversial, against Tommy) then they would be disengenuous and untruthful. Even Lenny recognized how diminished Marvin was and that is the ONLY reason he challenged Marv when he did.

 

And? And he had almost twice as many fights as Lenny. And he was more diminished than Lenny was. Lenny wasn't prime but he was still world class as he managed a (controversial) draw against Tommy and knocked out a much bigger (although limited) champion in Donny LaLonde after he'd fought Marvin. He was nowhere as diminished as Marvin was when they fought.

 

It doesn't hurt his legacy that much because:

1) He arguably should have won that fight
2) They were both creaking along in years by then and Hagler was more degraded than Leonard.

Does RJJ's loss to Calzaghe hurt his legacy?

 

You are right on the money and he said it himself.. He saw the Mugabi fight and how brutal it was and then said well now I think I can beat Hagler … Hagler 67 fights, Leonard 34 fights … who was the shopworn fighter! … And the Tommy fight, SRL lost. period.... and self admittingly

 

Hagler is one of my all-time favorites, but I agree with almost this entire post John. Hagler was not good in adapting mid fight and it was a big problem in the Lenny clash. That is probably his greatest weakness. However, anyone who followed Marvin throughout his career could easily see how his handspeed, footspeed and reflexes had dramatically diminished.

 

Spot on post. I thought Tommy edged the rematch as well, but it was a 12 rounder and Lenny did enough to get a draw from the judges. He was clearly still world class

 

It does a little and not for most of the reasons listed.
Hagler lost this fight in his own head combined with a really bad choice for the first 4 which he essentially gave away.
Leonard got in Haglers head so bad that he forgot how to execute. He forgot how to properly cut the ring off. He didnt let his hands go. Just bad bad strategy that his corner should have quickly taken charge of and corrected. Essentially I put equal blame on Hagler and the Petronellis. There a team and you would have thought it was there first fight together. Leonard didnt have @@@@ that night yet Marvin somehow let him walk out that ring MW Champion.

 

Hagler won that fight according to more than a few unofficial scorecards (I had him ahead by one point). But even if he did, not really. Leonard might have been top 10 all around ATG material, so no shame in that. It certainly doesn't take away from the idea that Hagler was arguably the greatest middleweight ever.

I think Marvin hurt his legacy more by being too cautious with Duran. But again, Duran would not look out of place as a top 10 all-timer. And Marvin knocked the poo out of yet another in Hearns. Plus, he did quite a job as champ overall imo.

 

I still rank him as the best Middleweight ever . Especially when considering most of the great Middleweights in history fought in a style that complemented what Hagler did best. BUT! Hagler had shown well before Leonard he could be out-smarted and out maneuvered. He was out smarted by Leonard's for agreeing to the larger boxing ring, and 12 rd distance. He was out maneuvered during the fight.

 

Not even on the same planet for obvious reasons.