Does Hagler losing to Leonard hurt his legacy?

As much as I dislike Lenny, yes I agree. Lenny was shot when he fought Camacho

 

His hand speed looked really slow at times in that bout.

 

Yes some......Hagler is an all time top 5 middleweight champion who lost his title to an ATG former Welterweight champion 3 yrs out of the ring....what it showed was the same thing the Duran fight showed and that was Haglers habit of letting his pride get in the way of solid strategy by trying to prove he could be a fighter at their own game....he was not in hunter killer mode in either fight...nothing like his rematch with Antuofermo or Hamsho or his peak performance against Sibson and his fight with Hearns....it seemed that he without the threat of danger became less focused on coming into the ring a killer. Granted Duran and SRLwere exceptional ATG talents but Hagler should have overwhelmed both fighters from a capability, size and strength standpoint

 

I decided not to get into that in this thread because the debate over whether Hagler or Leonard won is so played out and each side so entrenched in its thinking that's it's pointless trying to debate it. Those views have had 30+ years to solidify and harden. No-one is changing their mind at this point.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing Hagler wasn't noticeably diminished. Nobody however will ever convince me that this stands above the enormous set of intangibles Leonard had to overcome. This is a natural welterweight who had fought just 9 rounds in over 7 years and not at all for 3 years. It's 5 years of inactivity and Leonard was never big. Hagler tho diminished was still active and still winning - he was still the best 160 pounder in the world.

Leonards sheer speed, even tho also noticeably dulled by age and weight exacerbated how sluggish Hagler looked.

We can put up all the excuses in the world for Hagler and argue scoring but the fact is he fought a dumb fight. By contrast Ray fought an incredibly astute fight.

Here's what the great Eddie Futch said per Rays inactivity -

"But those five years of inactivity," Futch insists, "that will be the major factor. Things are always a little different when you finally get into the ring. He'll wonder why the things that worked in the ring aren't quite on the money in the ring now. Suddenly, you can't quite get out of the way of all those little punches."

Futch agrees with almost everybody else that, "Five years ago, this had a chance to be a great fight. Leonard had a chance to outbox him, outspeed him. I don't think that kind of speed exists today."

 

He was far from robbed...but to me (having only given the fight to Hagler by one measly point) it was really close and could have gone either way.

I do totally give kudos to Ray, he was magnificent in that fight. It's just that I never saw Leonard hurt Marvin once (and to my eyes Leonard got hurt more than once). Plus MM was the aggressor throughout (and the champion). To me this added up to a victory for the champ.

Did I say Leonard looked magnificent?

 

I tend to agree, I think it diminishes him a little bit, as does the Duran fight.
It does make you think that as great as he was how Hagler would have done against some of the other ATG’s who would have set him particular problems to solve.
Greb, Walker, Monzon and Sugar Ray.

 

Many people would argue he did not lose to SRL. So in a nutshell, no.

 

Someone is pouring salt into an old wound that never quite healed.

The truthful answer is yes it diminished his legacy, but not by much as Leonard has the best collection of wins in the past 30 years.

It was a close fight, but every time I watch it, Leonard wins. Hagler did not do enough to win any of the first four rounds cleanly.

I don't think Hagler to this day is over the loss and some of his fans remain bitter as well.

The bottom line is Leonard out thought Hagler IN and OUT of the ring. Hagler focused on the money for the in the contract, and let Leonard get inside his head. Leonard said okay, I'll take the larger ring and 12 rounds. Had this one been 15, Hagler might have come on late to win it.

 

This is an excellent point and a reason why Hagler was so eager to take the fight. Leonard on himself after the fight

"As of this moment, I am retired," he said. "There's no sense in fooling myself or anyone else. It's just not there. I just can't go on and humiliate myself. I fought with apprehension. I had fear for my eyes. I had fear for my whole body. But now I am content. I did try."

On Halger, I think he was mentally weak ( by a boxer's standard ) and sensitive on his appearance. Hagler hated the talk around how thick his skull looked, and didn't like to look bad in the ring either. Leonard's showboating could have hit this sensitive nerve.

This is one thing I never quite understood about boxing. If you don't like the other guy, it is legal to hit him back. Forget that, it's the only way to win 99.99% of the time in boxing. Costing or holding back when angered is a losing strategy unless you're waiting for the opponent to punch himself out or fade, which Hagler wasn't.

We'll never know, but maybe Hagler didn't open and let his hands go as much up because he didn't want Leonard to counter him with flash and style, looking bad while it was happening?

 

a mendy classic. ahahaha! brilliant!

 

I'm not the only person to day that. Klompton thinks the same, and I'll give you one better. A Boston based historian I know, who knows 10X more about boxing than you, quietly agrees with me.

 

he must be very quiet!

 

He's very respected. I get it Hager fans have a tough time with this loss. It was a close fight, I have Leonard up 7-5.

I'll discuss the fight or my opinion with those who reply with an even level of respect; I'm not going to waste much time reply back to a person who's has a history of mistakes in attempts to make the other person look bad.

Hagler wasn't aggressive enough vs Leonard to win and showed a much smaller Duran too much respect. These are known facts, the question remains why? He had the height, reach, size, durability and power edge in these fights ...but was too shy about using these assets.

 

Some people thought he was aggressive enough, and that plus the fact that he was the champ should have pushed the fight his way.

I based the two points I had Marvin over on just as much his aggressiveness as Leonard's lack of. I remain unconvinced SRL did any notable damage in that fight (and I'm a big fan of Ray), while it seems apparent to me Hagler had him hurt on several occasions. I'd be honestly interested to hear a virulently oppositional viewpoint to mine.