Does it make any difference to you that Ali wasn't ktfo in the Holmes fight?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Aug 8, 2022.

  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    And by the same token, are you impressed by the punishment he hoovered up?


    Watched this documentary about this sad, sad fight this past weekend:

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    It's a reminder.
     
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  2. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Definitely made a difference.

    As devastating as it was to see Ali beaten down the way he was - having the fight stopped between rounds 10 and 11 was so much less devastating than to have seen Ali rendered unconscious on the canvas.

    We knew his skills were gone but having his reputation for incredible resilience taken away from him also would’ve been simply too much.

    Doubled edged sword, horrible to see Ali take those shots but impressive (or should I say admirable but distasteful) nonetheless at the same time, particularly given Ali’s state of disrepair otherwise.

    Still, Ali’s upheld heart and durability vs Holmes was not a revelation, he displayed the same levels of heart and toughness throughout his whole career.

    It was scary reading Ali’s admission that he already felt well spent after just the first round - that he hung as long as he did in that fight was incredible - Ali conditioned us to expect nothing less from him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2022
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  3. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    It was going to be painful for us (and Ali) what ever happened against Holmes.
    It was his last title fight, against a young, hungry, proud fighter.
    Holmes stood back so Ali actually lasted as long as he did.
    If Holmes had really gone wild at Ali, the ref would have had to jump in.
    A sad but inevitable ending.
     
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  4. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah. A sad affair all round.
     
  5. ThatOne

    ThatOne Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The Ali that beat Spinks would have lost a wide decision. The Ali that beat Frazier in Manila would have won a narrow decision. He was so gone.
     
  6. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I've never actually believed this tbh. I admittedly haven't watched the fight in years but I definitely didn't get the impression Holmes was holding back.
     
  7. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

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    Really, Swag?
    I've not watched it for a while myself but I definitely have it in my mind that Larry held back.
    I'll have to give it a a fresh view.
     
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    You are both right IMO.

    The documentary I watched highlighted this. Holmes tries to knock out Ali early; then Holmes was straight up about coming up to stop Ali a bit later on and the highlights of that round are hard to watch. But late on, he absolutely held back.
     
  9. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Just opinions but I do absolutely agree with you on this one.

    Prior to the fight Holmes said he would knock Ali out - that was his intention.

    As it was playing out, Holmes was trying for the KO, but Ali was simply taking a godawful beating whilst remaining on his feet. The way I see it, the more Holmes tried to put Ali out without success, the worse it would look for Holmes just beating on Ali like that - as if protractedly torturing him.

    So, IF Holmes did hold back, imo, it was in the very latter stages and his holding back (if he even did) wasn’t a complete act of mercy - the punches going in right to the end were still very hard and hurtful.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2022
  10. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Holmes didn't want Ali to be seriously hurt.
     
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  11. Holmes77

    Holmes77 Member Full Member

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    I feel the fight should have never taken place. But I also feel at the end of the day Ali took the fight for money that’s been documented somewhere he needed money. And know I don’t think Larry held back he went out there to KO Ali. When that wasn’t happening maybe he did ease up? I think he did ask the ref to stop the fight. And I believe the fight wasn’t stopped till Herbert Muhammad gave his permission to do so. That’s a tragedy also! Why didn’t this Herbert Muhammad go in there and get his ass kicked by Holmes??? Probably because he was a leach and probably why Ali needed the money also!!!
     
  12. cslb

    cslb Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I watched that fight closed circuit and actually shed a few tears for the beating that Ali took. Ali had pissed Holmes off during the lead in to the fight so Holmes initially went at Ali hard. Towards the end you could see that Holmes wanted the fight stopped and held back. That old saying we tell our kids, “This is going to hurt me a lot more that it’s going to hurt you.” before they get a spanking definitely applied here. I think it hurt Holmes more than Ali towards the end,
     
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  13. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I know many don’t defer to or put much stock in punch stats but just throwing up Compubox Stats anyway:-

    Holmes threw 651 in total, landing 340.

    Broken down:-

    Thrown: 444 jabs in total, landing 205

    Thrown: 207 power shots, landing 135.

    Source:
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    So that’s an average of 34 punches landed per round by Holmes (composed of 20.5 jabs and 13.5 power punches per round)

    Remember too, the jabs were of a quality exclusive to Holmes and, flat footed, he was sitting down on those jabs particularly in this fight.

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    That’s a hell of a lot of punches to have landed and be soaked up over the course of the 10 rounds the fight lasted.
     
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  14. Jel

    Jel Reserving the right to be inconsistent Full Member

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    I’ve never been able to bring myself to watch this fight so I can’t offer an opinion on whether Holmes held back or not but in terms of the original question, it absolutely matters that Ali didn’t end up flat on his back, just as it matters that SRR didn’t ever get KO’ed by a punch and was stopped between rounds from heat exhaustion. Not having those images of great fighters flattened has an impact on how we view them. The reverse is certainly true of Roy Jones and his legacy.
     
  15. Pugguy

    Pugguy Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Well before my time but I find it difficult to even watch Marciano vs Louis, seeing poor Joe KO’d like that. I can’t imagine how people felt at the actual time - very sad.
     
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