Does it make any difference to you that Ali wasn't ktfo in the Holmes fight?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by McGrain, Aug 8, 2022.


  1. Barrf

    Barrf Boxing Addict Full Member

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    When has Larry ever been good at PR? He always seemed singularly bad at it.
     
  2. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    Never said he was good at it - see my interpretation of his reaction after the fight - though some seem to accept it as genuine which could be correct in all possibility - BUT even “shoot from the hip” Larry would’ve appreciated the fall out (as history proved) after the fight - in a few words: damage control.
     
  3. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Larry and his brother visited Ali in his suite after the fight and Larry asked Ali never to fight again. Larry was at the point of tears. Later friends of Ali came to his suite and Ali had to console them, telling them I'm still Muhammad Ali.
     
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  4. Rope-a-Dope

    Rope-a-Dope Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He was probably already doomed for the long run, but it would have been a lot better for him if he'd gotten KO'ed in the first round and gotten it over with rather than absorbing hundreds of punches for 10 rounds.
     
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  5. DavidC77

    DavidC77 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I don't think Ali took THAT bad a beating in this fight.

    He took far worse against Frazier and Shavers.

    For me, what makes the Holmes fight look so bad was that Ali had absolutely nothing to offer.
    The thyroid medication he was overdosing on (that had been wrongly prescribed) had drained his energy and caused his body to overheat.

    This meant that the fight was TOTALLY one-sided.

    Thankfully, Ali was up against a compassionate opponent who frequently held back instead of knocking him senseless.
     
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  6. JackSilver

    JackSilver Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Yeah, I’ve always thought that too. Holmes weren’t holding back. He really wanted to hurt Ali even when it was clear Ali couldn’t fight back.He only eased up when in the last round or two when he knew that Ali wouldn’t fall down even though he was crying out in pain from some of Holmes shots. Of course Holmes couldn’t admit this after the fight cos the fans and press would’ve crucified him
     
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  7. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

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    Holmes could have stopped him late. He definitely held back.
    It would have taken a prime Ali to compete with Holmes. Anything less and Holmes out jabs him for a UD
     
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  8. Barrf

    Barrf Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I think pre-exile Ali takes Holmes. I wonder about FOTC-vintage Ali. Would probably be a fight on par with the FOTC and real close.
     
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  9. FastLeft

    FastLeft Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Holmes tend not to "KTFO ' ' his challenges
    so is not something that is a feature of the interest of this result

    this is how Holmes wins usual
    just rain of punch & has challenger on rope get battering beating. normal Larry Holmes way method.

    the thing of this fight is perhaps more about how it can be so one sided & from begin to end all the way
    but mostly is just because of status legend of the Ali & how far back gone he is from his prime day
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
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  10. Bill1234

    Bill1234 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Total disagreement with those saying Larry didn’t take it easier as the fight went on. He clearly was at 100% for the first two or three rounds but afterwards settled in after realizing Ali was a shell of himself. Holmes later acknowledged that Ali’s jab had become nothing and his once potent right hand had become a dull thud. If you watch Larry go after Leroy Jones, Ocasio, Leon Spinks, David Bey, or basically anyone other than Ali you can tell the difference in the way he throws his punches and the way he’s willing to unload. Compared to those guys Larry clearly backed off vs Ali and he himself said he was pushing for a stoppage and not a knockout. In other words he was hitting Muhammad, but not hitting him with intent of putting him down.

    His reaction post fight was also very real. He just beat up his mentor and friend in a fight he knew would be lopsided but was a lose-lose affair for him. By far the part was the payday but that was literally the only upside for him
     
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  11. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Barrios is a bandit robber - Psalm 144:1 Full Member

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    I think he knew he wasn't getting him out of there and It was just plain mercy afterwards. His chin never went anywhere unlike a lot of characters.
     
  12. Journeyman92

    Journeyman92 Barrios is a bandit robber - Psalm 144:1 Full Member

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    Watched it once. Not a big Ali fan but I worship his courage in a fight and this made me hang my head.
     
  13. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    It’s an interesting bone of contention as to whether Holmes held back or not - or if he did hold back, by how much.

    Holmes did state he would knock Ali out. He wanted to remove the shadow of Ali in no uncertain fashion.

    IIRC, Holmes also said he wasn’t sure what tricks Ali might try on (or was up to early in the fight) so there might’ve been some wariness on Larry’s part for a few early rounds.

    Holmes himself could be known for low risk, semi cautious starts, relying almost exclusively on the jab for a number of rounds before mixing and increasing his attack.

    We know in hindsight how badly off Ali was but that wasn’t known from the outset and it did take a few rounds to become entirely apparent - and it was Ali after all, the master of foxing and the offbeat strategy - his mere rep. for pulling something out of the bag buying him a few rounds of semi caution from his opponent.

    I personally “saw” Larry ramp it up the more it became obvious that there was to be no surprises or magic from Ali - ultimately presenting himself as no more than a sitting duck.

    While Holmes was somewhat privy to the ways of Ali via previous sparring, he also admitted that while Ali laid on the ropes in sparring he had no idea the extent to which Ali would employ same (viz rope a dope) in Zaire. So Larry was aware of Ali’s potential to adapt and surprise.

    The way I see it, Holmes couldn’t put Ali down no matter how hard he went at Ali.

    Now Holmes might’ve held back a bit at times - but imo, that could’ve been simply to avoid the bad look of an uninterrupted beating of a legend who wasn’t going anywhere fast if at all (to the canvas at least).

    I posted the punch stats earlier in the thread - a lot of punches landed by Holmes, not reflective of holding back And visually, for the most part (if not all) it didn’t seem Holmes was holding back imo.

    Holmes also said years later that his “idol” Ali was overrated.

    Larry also claimed that wasn’t “out” when Tyson KO’d him - rather, Larry claimed he could’ve arisen but there was no point as he was going to get put down again and lose anyway……

    To steal from the thread title, it looked to me like Larry was KTFO…..and tbh, it was sad to see Larry himself beaten in such brutal and emphatic fashion….so much harder to imagine Ali ever having gone out the same way….
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
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  14. AliHolmesMayweather

    AliHolmesMayweather New Member Full Member

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    Yeah. I'm impressed and saddened that Ali was able to endure such punishment when he was way past his best and his health was affected severely.
     
  15. FastLeft

    FastLeft Well-Known Member Full Member

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    thyroid medication is most just excuse to make reason for another come back fight .
    Ali look exactly what a complete total true "" shot ' ' boxer would expects looks like against with peak of Larry Holmes.