Does it make any difference to you that Ali wasn't ktfo in the Holmes fight?

Exactly You are Right..

 

They were so brave. So tough. May they rest in power

 

Nobody is denying Holmes took the Ali fight very seriously at the onset. It’s arguably the most motivated version of Holmes we saw, maybe with the exception of Norton or Cooney. Difference being the the Ali fight was smack in the middle of Holmes’s prime.

Comparing the Ali fight to Shavers is a big stretch and I think you know it. Shavers in the first and second fight against Holmes was exponentially stronger, more dangerous, livelier, more game, etc than Ali was when he fought Holmes. Earnie was also fairly tough to put down despite his reputation as chinny. His problem was less his chin and more his gas tank.

Again, prefight comments by Holmes were prior to him knowing how poor Ali’s condition was and when Holmes was absolutely supremely motivated. Doesn’t mean his super serious and bad intentioned attitude didn’t change during the fight itself. At the beginning of the fight Holmes was absolutely putting in 100% effort. As it wore on he definitely began to put less muster behind all of his shots and was more focused on keeping control and putting pressure for a ref stoppage. He literally looked at the ref for a stoppage, similar to how he did in the Shavers rematch and in the Marvis Frazier fight.

A notable difference in the Frazier fight vs Ali is that he clearly swung at Marvis with more hurtful intent with his right at the end than he did vs Ali when they were in similar positions even though he clearly could have swung at Ali the same way. Also, Holmes clearly sat down on his punches more when he was trying to take Shavers out late in their first fight and when he did get Earnie out in their rematch than what he threw with consistency at Ali.

In regards to corner comments, Holmes also went to his corner after the first round against Holyfield and noted he was stronger than Evander. Doesn’t mean he adopted a strength-oriented strategy. Holmes clearly outlined in his book later on that he quickly felt Ali was not the man of previous years and was no longer a threat.

It’s odd to me this whole thing where people deny Holmes was sad about the Ali fight in the end. He clearly was emotional and unhappy about the condition of Ali afterward, yet people claim crocodile tears. He has often mentioned how proud he was in 1971 when Ali gave him a black eye in sparring. He’s often mentioned how grateful he was for the opportunity to learn from Ali I camp for the first half of the 70’s. Yet somehow, someway, Holmes apparently had it out for Ali in a personal way for Ali in 1980. Ali talked a lot of smack in the lead up to the fight too. Even center ring was very vulgar towards Holmes. Larry showed more restraint there than he would have vs anyone else. He shoved people like Berbick and Smith for less than what Ali was doing before their fight. He never once got angrily aggressive towards Ali despite the vulgarity of Ali’s words and demeanor.

Again, there are plenty of fights out there where Larry was trying to knock someone down vs trying to stop them. The Ali fight falls into stoppage category with Holmes’s punches vs when he threw with true conviction.

 

Well, you can leave out “and you know it”.

The analogy I made to the Holmes vs Shavers fight is not a stretch at all. In fact, it was right on point - and, as I already highlighted, if nothing else, Ali still had a better chin and overall resilience than Earnie - and Holmes not securing a KD, let alone an outright KO of a badly wilting Shavers DESPITE his obvious efforts to do so - did not equate to holding back -

I didn’t bang on Earnie’s chin, I duly noted that he HAD been KO’d/stopped previously - obviously, prior to facing Holmes, Ali himself had not been. That was the obvious point there. Certainly Earnie could flounder due to stamina issues, making him even more prone to hit the deck or close enough to - and despite that very pitfall actually figuring in his bouts vs Holmes, Larry still couldn’t put him down.

Holmes wanted to put Ali out. He categorically stated he wanted to put Ali out and the exact reason why.

Holmes trained himself to that end and to ensure no glitches otherwise. His sparring was more or less described as savage, high volume, hurtful punches being sent in. If Holmes could’ve put Ali out, he would’ve.

In the lead up, a photo of Ali with the eyes blackened out was affixed to the wall at Larry’s gym.

Even before the first Shavers fight, Holmes stated Ali was not the fighter he once was. As an aside point, Holmes also questioned the rating of Shavers as a puncher, musing as to which fighters of note had Shavers actually knocked out.

If Holmes truly respected and loved Ali - WHY admit to holding back? Any competitive athlete, Ali being the most extreme example of same, would take that as an insult. That claim was only meant to serve Holmes, NOT Ali.

The analogy to Holmes comments to his corner vs Holyfield doesn’t hold. Vs Ali, It was Larry’s corners comments with which Holmes agreed.

Further, you stated that Holmes simply informed his corner that he was stronger…the meaning behind what he said is open to interpretation and by no means would necessarily suggest Holmes would embark on a strength based strategy - something he wasn’t known for anyway.

Holmes was sitting down on his punches throughout the Ali fight - against Shavers there was more movement for the greater part -

I didn’t discount Holmes backing off a bit - at times. Unable to put Ali down - the resulting vision was of Holmes putting an hellacious beating on a sporting icon. Even so, Holmes was still attempting KO drops in the very late stages.

Some years later also, Holmes opined that Ali was overrated and that Ali was not as badly off for their fight as most other people believed.

I’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

The most shocking fight I've seen, what the hell was his corner thinking.
It wasn't just the sickening head shots he was soaking up, talking about his kidney damage, Ali took a severe beating to the body as well.

And Holmes really believes he took it easy on him, did he hell like.

 

Yea it made a difference in that it was worse. Ali took more punishment and probably sustained more damage in this fight with his age and medication he was wrongly prescribed it was a disaster waiting to happen.
Had he been knocked out in 4 or 5 rounds like I believe Holmes could have it would been sad for a moment but safer for the fighter. It was sadder watching him not even competitive and then quitting in the corner. Stallone said sitting ringside was like watching a man get an autopsy while he was still alive.
Holmes meant not hurt him badly but his kindness probably made it last longer.

 

Leonard/Camacho was proof that there is a God and he's a boxing fan.

 

I’ve never watched the entire fight. It looks like Holmes definitely starts pretty fast. Imagine if this version if Holmes comes out against Spinks in the rematch. I think he didn’t go all out for a knockout later in the fight but he was still landing hard shots. That uppercut that stands Ali up and the body shorts were viscous.

Man how horrible to enter a ring and know you have nothing. I’ve seen moments where Ali is literally in a shell trying to cover from the punches coming at him. This isn’t the rope a dope. I think what makes the fight so difficult are the times when Ali looks like he’s in a complete fog. There’s no expression on his face, his hands are sometimes down and he’s just taking a beating. I’ve seen old boxers get beaten but nothing as painful as this. This isn’t a guy who’s a step slow. This isn’t a guy overwhelmed by a younger, faster fighter. This is a boxer who had nothing at all. Probably a hungry 4 round fighter could’ve beaten Ali.

I watched the Frazier comeback against Jumbo Cummings & it’s pretty bad but nothing like the Ali Holmes fight.

 

This. Holmes definitely showed Ali some professional courtesy and never went for the kill. Holmes never once really turned it up on Ali and Holmes being at his best certainly could've and it wouldn't have been pretty for Ali.