Does Jack Johnson really belong in a heavyweight top 10?

So, to be clear, in his own time he beat:

James Jeffries - Arguably the greatest fighter of all time to this point. the equivalent of a modern fighter (say Wlad) beating say Lennox Lewis.

Bob Fitzsimmons - The pound for pound greatest fighter of the time and a heavyweight legend. Compare to Evander Holyfield in stature of his time.

Tommy Burns - a smallish fighter who had cleaned up the division outside of Johnson. Compare to say David Haye.

He never fought Sam Langford as champion, who was his main challenger and arguably the best fighter in the world at one point, but he did already fight and dominate Langford. Compare to say Vitali Klitchsko of the time.

Marvin Hart - a solid contender who was at one time the holder of a world title due to the retirement of a legend. Compare to say Lamon Brewster.

Joe Choynski - a big hitting fighter with plenty of power but not quite ever able to be that world champion. Compare to Corrie Sanders.

Obrien - Former world light heavyweight champion and clever boxer who at one time at an alphabet title. Compare to Chris Byrd.

Ketchell - all time great former middleweight stepping up (and people forget that he had become a heavyweight (by standards of the time) by the Johnson fight. Compare to say Roy Jones Jr.

Flynn - a solid fighter who with hindsight was good enough to score an upset win over an all time great fighter and generally have a decent career. Compare to say Hasim Rahman.

Sam McVey, Joe Jeannette, Denver Ed Martin, Sandy Ferguson, Jim Johnson etc. Compare to most of Vlad's best title challengers such Chagaev and Co, though Johnson seems to have quite a few more.

Morris, and the other lower level challengers. Have to be considered the same level as the likes of most of Wlads challengers. Even Mclachlan who was a give me defence surely has to be higher regarded than Alex Lepai, for example.


So looking at this result, if Johnson had come through (instead of Wlad) with the wins and win streaks he had in his time, do you think that many people would have considered him to be top 10 of all time?

I think they would. In fact, i think there is nothing wrong with placing at the same level as Louis and Ali. If people wish to place him number one, there is nothing wrong with this.

 

I think he does as much as any pre 1960's fighter alongside Louis.

 

In my opinion no he beat the smallest HW champ in history to gain the belt, fortunately found little real opposition in his division at the time and ducked prime Sam Langford

 

And what does that have to do with his ranking. Guys like Jeffries, Corbett, and Johnson cant really be rated in head to head matches, not because the skill got better, but it was a whole other sport. We are talking about 25 to fight to the finish, raisin cover matts, were a knock down could blind a guy, no neutral corner rule, and a very soft enforcement of the rules of the day. There is no way Ali or SRL could compete in that environment with out changing there styles of fighting. We are talking being flat footing and making the other guy wear himself out before you wear out.

It was other sport. I in the past have defended Jess Willard, because he may or may not win vs Johnson in a 15 or 12 round fight, but both knew the limit, and acted to the rules of the day. It would be a other fight in a shorter fight imo. Willard would have been more active as he was vs Moran.

 

Can we take it that you've done some unsoft time in the unsmall house, then ?

"That" is definitely a word, and a fairly common one, I might add.


On the other hand, did you perhaps mean that "also" wasn't a word ?

Well that would be a different story, but the ending would be undifferent, as I'm pretty sure that "also" is also a word also.

 

Let's see.

He was KO'd by a super middle, floored by another super middle, and drew with another super middle

He quit in multiple fights.

He was DQ'd, and threw low blows and fouls in several fights.

He lost what was billed as a title elimination fight to Marvin Hart, and could not beat Hank Griffin who was past his best in three fights.

He ducked the best 3-5 tittle opponents out there as champion. In fact his title run of tenured champions is perhaps the weakest of all time.

He has quite a few draws vs lesser opposition.

He might have agreed in arrangements / fixed fights. This is an unknown but casts a cloud of doubt on other fights.

Does any other top 10 ATG have this many

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Johnson was without a doubt one of the best fighters in his time, but never beat a top level opponent that was in his prime above the level of say the 5'7" 168 pound Tommy "wide hips " Burns.

No, he is not a top ATG top 10 fighter. Had Johnson fought and beaten Langford, Gunboat Smith ( who sparked him and in a ex match ), McVey, or Jeannette from 1909-1914 I would say yes, he belongs in the top ten. But he drew the color line against the best black fighters, and was often booed for bad fights.

To suggest Johnson would beat the likes of Liston, Ali, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson, Bowe, Lewis, or either Klitschko ( 9 fighters ) in a fantasy match up is the fools gold currency of the board.

Que in MCvey who doesn't have the weights of the Choynski fight in a lame attempt to mitigate the truth in 5..4..3..2..1..

 

ps Two u's two e's in Queue which in any case is not the right word ,the word you were groping for in your re****ed way was cue.

You forgot to add he was bald, bad and, most important as far as you're concerned BLACK !!!! .:yikes

 

If you are in need of some newly discovered words I can recommend Mendoza's posts.:good

 

Go F' yourself. You sad old man. You can't say what I wrote is not true. OWNAGE.:hi::hi::hi:

Like I said you live to lamely reply to what I write. My all time list has Spots #1, #2, and #3 Black men. Two of them said racy things, but to be honest none of them were bald.

 

You have your errors of grammar and spelling too. Like I said I post quickly here because unlike yourself I don't have a lot of time on my hands on the weekends or at work.

 

For this we are truly grateful:rofl