Does James Toney always lose to Roy Jones Jr?

you are confusing it with the higher divisions when Toney got older. James had ok feet in the middleweight divisions. Actually some of Jones deficiencies became obvious when he slowed down. What kind of a jab or insight game did he have?

you are right in hypothetical match ups it is about the best versions of each fighters. you want to find out who is truly better and not pursue an agenda.

 

nice try dude. But Toney was in shape in plenty of fights in the middleweight divisions: Nunn, Mc Callum I, Mc Callum II, R.Johnson, Iran Barkley,, Prince Willams,, De Witt, Tim Littles....
usually James was in shape in the middleweight divisions., not the other way around. you just made a fool out of yourself.

 

Me? You make a tossel of yourself in every Toney thread with your extreme bias. In every Toney thread you race around quoting people that haven't even addressed you, trying to force your bias down there throat. Every single close fight he's ever had you score for him, including Tiberi!!!! What more need be said lol

 

At 168 lbs, when they actually fought, James allegedly couldn't put the fork down and his fans use it as an excuse - what did he have to actually test Roy sufficiently when he couldn't get himself ready for the biggest fight of his life?

I actually prefer James over Roy, but cannot overlook that he let himself down - just like I prefer Duran over Leonard but don't excuse Roberto for the No Mas.

In these hypotheticals, gotta rate them off what they actually did rather than what they theoretically would've done if they actually did what they were paid to do in real time.

James had good balance, but he had relatively slow feet and certainly didn't employ the jab and footwork conducive to catching and trapping Roy.

I don't see any prepared version of Roy up and until after the Ruiz fight that James can realistically beat. You can't shoulder roll and wait for Roy to come to you, catch, roll and counter. Toney at higher weights was more of a clubbing puncher than genuine one puncher and all the way up to Ruiz, Roy still had the pop and the speed to disrupt James's timing and catch him unprepared and slightly off balance.

I'm surprised that this is the Toney hill that you're choosing to stand on. It's pretty much a given that Roy is all wrong for Toney and Hop up and until he slows down - too much speed and power, yes, power for them to be able to get off with their best work. Both had great chins but which fighters did you see just walk through Roy's hooks and right hand leads?

Whilst both Hop and Toney are master boxers in their own right, they lack the workrate and skillset to force him to a point where their fundamentals can overcome his superior speed up and until he slowed down.

Even when against the ropes turning his head and closing his eyes to brace for impact, they don't carry the Julian Jackson power or the G-Man power to take him out in one shot.

I would give Hop a better chance to deal with Roy as he has better feet and became a superior ring general IMO, but for all his skills, Toney had already been humiliated by Roy - this plays a part in the psyche of any rematch.

 

Some of your points seem fair. There is no excuse in toney being not properly prepared for Roy, especially as this was the biggest fight of his career. Also I agree that Roy's style would always be difficult for Toney.

However, again I am not sure Roy from the Ruiz beats Toney because of the reduced mobility/reflexes and glass chin at that weight. I just see Roy's style advantages being reduced there at the higher weights.

Since you are bringing in Hopkins, I agree with you that Roy beats Hopkins, until he has significantly slowed down.

 

How much harder did James hit than Ruiz?

Where's the evidence of a glass chin at 193 lbs or whatever it was that Roy weighed in?

As I said, just don't know how you're expecting spurts fighter James to trap Roy and do what nobody else did until Tarver, AFTER he cut down 20 lbs of muscle. Tarver had the style, reach and southpaw style to catch Roy. I can't think of many that watch both careers play out up until that point and fancy James to do what hadn't been done before.

Being somewhat confident about it due to reduced mobility and supposed glass jaw suggests a bit of hindsight and revisionism. I don't remember hearing too much clamour for a rematch, nor do I remember anyone notable suggesting that Toney could beat him prior to him beating Ruiz or immediately after him beating Ruiz. I am, however, more than happy to be educated to the contrary.

 

relax dude, no need to get upset. you are operating with extreme bias in every Hopkins thread. Unlike you are for hopkins, I am actually conceding points (as I am in this thread) and picking fighters to beat Toney in hypothetical matchups.

 

Do you really think Roy had a different chin at 193 Ibs than at 175 Ibs? It is the same chin. In his prime Roy rarely got hit flush. Ruiz did not land anything meaningful.

Actually Jones weight looked fine in the Tarver rematch. He was in top shape and a heavy favourite to win the second fight. In their first fight, I agree Jones looked a bit drained, but he won that fight anyway.

Again, I think Roy's stylistic advantages are reduced at heavyweight. I think Toney has a better chance there to beat him.

 

Why would i be upset? You said i made a fool of myself, i said you make a tossel of yourself. Everything else i said was factual.

No stress here, none at all.

 

Actually, yes - putting on weight and facing bigger punchers or cutting weight can seriously affect your chin/punch resistance.

It's professional fighting - your opponent has actually trained to take your head off, you're going to get caught.

Roy was caught at MW, SMW, LHW, HW - fighters happen to be very good at taking punches and continuing to fight. Whether he was caught flush by what you consider to be a KO worthy punch or not is neither here nor there. He went up to HW, came back down and looked terrible, comparative to his previous form. I'm not medically trained but I think it logical that the weight jumping and likely alleged lack of chemical assistance had an effect on his punch resistance.

It is what it is - Ruiz version of Jones was certainly more vulnerable than the man who dropped Virgil Hill, but it is certainly not James Toney that I'm putting money on to get him outta there.