Does Jeffries belong in the top 30 of all time?

Other than Jeffries, no heavyweight ever beat an inshape middleweight as good as fitzsimmons.

That being said, I am pretty sure that Johnson got a lot of credit for beating Tommy Burns. (and Langford for that matter).
Marciano got credit beating ezzard Charles, who ws a pretty good middleweighte, if not world champion.
Sam Peter's stock went up when he beat James Toney.

This one is tougher. how about Kevin mc Bride just after he beat Mike Tyson?

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Jeffries beat a 36 and 39years old Fitzsimmons coming out of a 2 years absence from the ring in both cases,and one handicapped by bad hands,which is well documented.
Johnson beat a 23 years old Langford who had more fights than him [63], and who had fought just 3 weeks earlier.
Johnson beat a 27 years old reigning champion in Burns,one who had already defended his title 6 times that year .
Jeffries had 34lbs on Fitz for their first fight and 47lbs for their second.
Jeffries was also 12 years younger than Fitzsimmons. Johnson was 3 years older than Burns.
Johnson outweighed Langford by23lbs and Burns by27lbs
Spot the difference?

 

he was great in his era & day so I say yes....anyone who fought in his era would be up against the same conditions & knowledge of the game...history teaches & the gloved boxing era had not much history at that point but still a lot of tough men & Jeffries rose to the top.

 

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I understand the points you make. I was just commenting on the comment that it was argued that NO heavyweight ever got credit for such feates.

Still, Fitz has to be considered an oddity and special case. We all know age and size handicaps hold him back in atg rankings. But Purely on his record, in his own time, the way he ripped through the heavyweight division when he was well past prime, after he had already lost the title before finally succumbing to Jeffries (and you know as well as anyone how Jeffries waited until he had virtually retired before giving him the rematch) was as impressive as any other heavyweights post prime run, in fact maybe more so. I think he had better wins than Old Johnson, Old Louis, old Holmes, Old Liston, Old Dempsey. It is probably only Old Ali whose run is as impressive (assuming you count Ali from say the Ken Norton loss). Other than weight restrictions, Fitz would be ranked a lot higher as a heavy and he may very well be the most underated heavyweight champion of all time. If he was this good when old and past prime, how good must he have been in his prime?

I actually think that there is a pretty good argument that Fitz should rate higher than Jeffries at heavy, despite the loss. Both could easily be in the top 30 themselves and probably are. The Nat Fleischer argument that seems absurd from the outside just might not be as bad as what people think.

 

LOL

Langford was 20 according to the book on him and 156 pounds. l Fitz 1899 > Langford 1906 BY A HUGE MARGIN.

Fitz in the 2nd fight was also better than Burns. Look at who he beat after 1899 and after the 2nd loss to Jeffries

If you want to compare fighters, Jeffries and Johnson both fought who were close enough to their prime, such as Griffin, Choynski, Munroe, Everett...Jeffries did much better than Johnson. No debate here.

Jeff retired undefeated in 1905. Never beaten or KO'd by smaller men! He didn't draw with no names either and put his title on the line with what can be viewed as four of the best five contenders from 1899-1904.

Johnson, by contrast, ducked his best four contenders!!!!

Do you need to see me retype in these facts with more details? You should have learned by now.

Just admit you play double standards on many accomplished white heavies, while at the same time refusing to do the same for Johnson and you'll at least be honest here.

 

I have never denied that Jeffries had physical advantages over his opponents, and I don't think that anybody else has either.

I must insist that Fitzsimmons was a credible heavyweight, regardless of what he weighed, because he beat all the top heavyweight contenders of the era.

I asked you if you are interested in learning anything new about the era, and I think the answer is no if we are honest about it.

You have obviously made up your mind, and don't want to learn anything that might contradict that position.

 

Why do you think that he exercised his prerogative to increase the middleweight limit?

 

A number of journalists of the period accused Fitzsimmons of falsifying his weight, in order to lead his opponents into a false sense of security.

You also here weights quoted for him, that were significantly higher than the ones that he reported.

That is all that I know really.

You can either choose to believe Fitzsimmons, or you can choose to believe the people pointing the finger, but the best option might be to record an open verdict.

 

QUOTE="janitor, post: 19017776, member: 3871"]Why do you think that he exercised his prerogative to increase the middleweight limit?[/QUOTE]
The fight, “looked upon as one of the greatest ever made” according to the St. Paul Globe, drew sports from every corner of the country and a total of 4,500 spectators, grossing the Olympic Athletic club around $35,000. Fitzsimmons entered the ring first, weighing in at between 151 and 155 lbs. Some reports have him weighing in at 155 lbs. and being required to work off a single pound to make the then middleweight limit of 154 lbs, but the most widely reported figure is 151 lbs. Dempsey was only slightly smaller on paper weighing in at 147½ lbs , but a size difference was almost universally remarked upon.Matt McGrain

I can't find the piece I originally learned it from I will look later .I know he upped the limit to158lbs.
This is another reference to it by Ron Jackson. Super Sports.
He mentions champions upping the weight limits.

"Only during the 1880s, after the general adoption of the Queensberry Rules, an effort was made to standardise weight divisions in England and the United States.

Some sort of agreement was reached between the British and Americans in 1910. However, many of the weight limits they set were later changed.

The limits often fluctuated by considerable margins. Lightweight champion Willie Ritchie raised the limit in 1912 from 133 to 135 pounds (60 to 62.6 kg), and in 1894 Bob Fitzsimmons increased the middleweight limit from 154 to 158 pounds (70 to 71.8 kg). In 1915 it was raised to 160 (72.5 kg), its present limit.

Champion George Dixon decided to raise the featherweight limit from 115 to 120 pounds (52.1 to 54.5 kg). "

Here is the link.

https://www.supersport.com/boxing/blogs/ron-jackson/no_room_for_woodweights

Here is CyberZones quote.

THE CYBER BOXING ZONE
presents
The Lineal Middleweight Boxing Champs
This list gives credit to The Man Who Beat The Man. Ludicrous decisions of sanctioning bodies are ignored. The middleweight division originally had a weight limit of 154 pounds; Bob Fitzsimmons raised that to 158, and the limit is now 160. Write us with any comments. The Editors. Ciao!

 

Sam Langford
(the "Boston Tar Baby")
BORN March 4 1883; Weymouth, Nova Scotia, Canada

I've provided proof that Johnson signed contracts to fight Langford and McVey in Australia, I provided the name of the promoter, the size of the purse and why the fights did not happen.
I did exactly the same for the 2 New York title defences with Joe Jeannette that Johnson signed for , the name of the promoters the date and the purses.
It is all in Pollack's book and I'm not going to repeat it yet again for a phobic, poisonously unbalanced,moron like you, I couldn't care less what you think,You have the thought processes of a ******ed baboon!

 

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I rate Fitzsimmons as the best heavyweight before Johnson, and so did Johnson!

 

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[/QUOTE]The fight, “looked upon as one of the greatest ever made” according to the St. Paul Globe, drew sports from every corner of the country and a total of 4,500 spectators, grossing the Olympic Athletic club around $35,000. Fitzsimmons entered the ring first, weighing in at between 151 and 155 lbs. Some reports have him weighing in at 155 lbs. and being required to work off a single pound to make the then middleweight limit of 154 lbs, but the most widely reported figure is 151 lbs. Dempsey was only slightly smaller on paper weighing in at 147½ lbs , but a size difference was almost universally remarked upon.Matt McGrain
[/QUOTE]
The question was rhetorical.