Does Jeffries belong in the top 30 of all time?

The fight, “looked upon as one of the greatest ever made” according to the St. Paul Globe, drew sports from every corner of the country and a total of 4,500 spectators, grossing the Olympic Athletic club around $35,000. Fitzsimmons entered the ring first, weighing in at between 151 and 155 lbs. Some reports have him weighing in at 155 lbs. and being required to work off a single pound to make the then middleweight limit of 154 lbs, but the most widely reported figure is 151 lbs. Dempsey was only slightly smaller on paper weighing in at 147½ lbs , but a size difference was almost universally remarked upon.Matt McGrain
[/QUOTE]
The question was rhetorical.[/QUOTE]
I presume if you ask a question you expect an answer.

 

The question was rhetorical.[/QUOTE]
I presume if you ask a question you expect an answer.[/QUOTE]
Wonder if revisionists might have Fitz as a Jr. MW Champ too.....kinda like Emile Griffith's JMW Championship that he won, defended once, but never really claimed it thereafer.

1963-02-03 : Emile Griffith 152 lbs beat Chris Christensen 150½ lbs by TKO in round 9 of 15

• Location: Forum, Copenhagen, Denmark
• Referee: Robert Seidel

Emile Griffith celebrated his 25th birthday by successfully defending his World Junior middleweight title in Copenhagen. He stopped the 36-year old Dane, Christian Christensen in the 9th, after "Gentleman Chris" had been down twice in that round. The towel came flying in. Christensen had also been down in the 3rd.

Griffith moved in and out on the Dane, he even could take some extra seconds off to admire the effect of his combinations. The first two knockdowns were from right crosses, the final attack was a two fisted volley.

Prior to the fight, in January 1963, Boxing News reported that a member of the Danish parlament intended to stop the event, fearing that Christensen would get seriously hurt.


Oct 17 Teddy Wright Vienna, Austria W 15
-Griffith claimed the newly created Junior Middleweight
Championship following his win over Wright;
This division was established in 1962, when the Austrian Board of Control recognized a fight between Nicko Sabong and Teddy Wright for the "world" championship. (The Griffith vs Wright fight, which took place on October 17, was won by Griffith via a 15-round decision. He defended once 2/03/63), then abandoned his claim.).

 

I presume if you ask a question you expect an answer.[/QUOTE]
Wonder if revisionists might have Fitz as a Jr. MW Champ too.....kinda like Emile Griffith's JMW Championship that he won, defended once, but never really claimed it thereafer.

Call it revisionism with Fitz and Jeffries if you want but if his title was at 154 just confirms what I have said in previous posts about Jeffries competition at that I said he was fighting a rehydrated jrmiddleweight in Fitz and conceivably could have been a modern welterweight. If you have followed the entire thread the question was Jeffries greatness in an era where it was considered sporting to have an undersized, under-strength and even under-powered to match up with a modern sized heavyweight in Jeffries. It is clear that Fitz was naturally a middleweight and when he changed the weight limit he was like fighters have always been miserable dieting down to make their prime weight in this case 154 and changed the weight to 158 and eventually got tired of cutting that weight.....my assertion his part of his success of being able to fight within 10lbs of his natural weight and still beat the hell out of top heavyweights such a Ruhlin that the heavyweight division was weaker than other eras. Myself I see no reasonable explanation as to how this happened in that era but not really in any other where a natural middleweight could rule heavyweights except as to argue the modern sized heavyweights of the era were weak KO'g 185lb fighter while at 170 is one thing but beating up and KO'g modern sized heavies is another thing all together which reveals the weakness of the era and the greatness of Fitz both while putting Jeffries all time standing in question.

 

The question was rhetorical.[/QUOTE]
In Texas, we have no words that start with "Rh",
except for "rheumatism".

 

Johnson had many offers in the press by famous promoters. If he wanted to fight Langford or McVey, he could have! In many areas of the world. For a guy who loved money so very much why wouldn't Johnson take an extra large purse or two and meet Langford, McVey, or Jeannette? DUH, he didn't want to lose his belt, which was being milked by " white hope " types " , which in some cases exposed Johnson in victory or draws.
Getting floored by a crude Ketchel, and out boxed by a past his best O'Brien. Supper middleweight showing up the heavyweight champion of the world in his prime? Yep.

What's a signed contract really mean to a guy like Johnson who pulls out of them or has no intention on honoring them? Your a joke.

Langford's manager Joe Woodman tried many times, and it is a fact that Johnson pulled out of a signed contract to meet Langford in the UK in 1909 as champions!!!

Johnson was just stringing them along. The business people that knew him said he wasn't very honest. As Jeannette put it when Johnson became champion, he forgot his old friends and drew the color line against this own people. All you offer was excuses!

Clay's book said Langford was 20 years for Johnson in 1906, and he's the authority. This makes Langford just a year older than the Sam McVey Johnson beat in the first two fights when he was a teenager.

PS: If I read Adam's book on Johnson, I'd like to have even more data to bury you, not that I need it. He and I did chat about the book before it was released. Adam underreporting things in some cases. There was a thread here a while back when Klompton was all over him, which oddly was enough was the last time I recall him posting here.

For example, two other books say Johnson said he quit vs. Klondike. Quitting was something Johnson would do later in his career as well. When Adam and I chatted about the sources for the fight, he showed four, and each of them directly contradicted each other. He ended up picking the report that cast Johnson in the best light. If you want details on Johnson, Unforgivable Blackness is the best I have read. Ward is a fantastic writer and pulls no punches when it comes to facts, and he says Johnson quit like a dog.

 

You are correct, Rich won't or can't learn and will duck or avoid questions that have truth in them to preserve his biased opinions. Fitz was the best heavy for a time and better than all except for Jeffries from 1897-1903.

 

A rabidly racist post from the chief Johnson hater.

All I have to say to you RainMan is:

This is a thread to discuss Jim Jeffries standing as an all time heavyweight great You are doing your level best to turn it into your usual hysterical bash Jack Johnson diatribe of lies and bull****.


Have some ****ing respect for the OP!
Either talk about Jeffries ,or get the **** off the thread and create your own hate one!

 

Yes he should be in the top 30 based on his accomplishments in relation to the time period. That said, I would have a much harder time putting him in a top 30 h2h HW list.

 

That is an interesting take on it.One that probably warrants a thread on its own.

 

Probably the least that you would have to say for him, was that he raised the bar considerably in terms of quality/quantity of title defenses, and that he had the best title reign before Joe Louis.

Even if he was a bad as his critics say he was, these would be significant accomplishments.

 

I have him around 8-10 at heavyweight.

 

Let me ask you, would you have him higher on your ATG HW list than you would a h2h HW list?

 

It seems that Fitzsimmons weight is an insurmountable block for you.

However many good fighters he beat, the fact that he was previously able to make the middleweight limit, is a deal breaker for you regarding his standing?

 

I probably would, but I see him as a bit of an enigma head to head.

Frank Loiterzo once wrote "Jeffries might have beaten Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali in the same night, or he might have been consistently losing to guys like Michael Dokes."

I can't really disagree with this statement!

 

Mendoza, Mendoza you are confused and lost in the debate as usual...The era has to be the weakest when we consider a middleweight champion moved up and routinely beat the top heavyweight contenders and Ruhlin who fought Jeffries twice was nearly killed by Fitz and he was more or less modern sized.....Fitz was great but to wreck a modern sized heavyweight to the point he did says the era had the weakest big men of the gloved sport. Now after having said that and yes I am aware Mendoza you will be confused as usual and go back to square one and start this all over again but again this is the era Jeffries ruled....you my friend want to quote the people of the era as proof and I am using a combination of experience, analysis and reason to say the era is overrated therefore Jeffries is really overrated.