Does Joe Louis exhibition fights impress or enhance his legacy in any way

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Long Count, May 28, 2019.


  1. The Long Count

    The Long Count Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Joe Louis is routinely hailed as one of the two best heavyweights of all time and His legacy is firmly secure, however could his exhibition career add even more value to his accomplishments. I find it fascinating that Louis in addition to fighting an extensive pro career fought almost a second entire career of exhibition bouts.
    Among fighters Louis fought and defeated in exhibition bouts are Roscoe Toles a mid 1930s African American contender. Louis fought Toles shortly before his bout with Primo Carnera. This bout has sometimes even been listed as a professional encounter and not an exhibition. This is significant because as we all know Louis didn't face many fighters of color during his career. (Willie Davies, John Henry Lewis, Jimmy Bivins, Jersey Joe Walcott 2x, Ezzard Charles, Omelio Agramonte 2x (afro cuban) and Andy Walker.
    Toles was in his prime when they met and Louis stopped him in 6 rounds.
    We also have his 3 fight exhibition series with Elmer Ray. These fights occurred in 1949 when Ray was sliding past his best days of 1947 and Louis was past his best as well. Louis took the first fight although competitive most had him winning but some outliers claimed a draw would of been fair. Louis took the second match more convingly and finally stopped Ray in the 3rd bout although as some posters have noted Ray was ko'd in a professional bout only one week earlier and almost certainly should not have been back in the ring so soon. However it's still 3 wins over a name fighter that is routinely brought up as legit opposition and a true what if contender.
    then we have Louis knocking out the very big and marginally gifted contender Nino Valdes in one round. Valdes was a quality professional and thought to be somewhat of a legit contender for the crown shorlty after Joe's career concluded.
    We then have the filmed slaughter of Pat Valentino a fringe contender of the day who like Ray never fought again after being hammered by the brown bomber.

    I find that these bouts while maybe not enhancing Joe's legacy being that they were exhibitions are certainly impressive results nonetheless.
     
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  2. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft He Who Saw The Deep Full Member

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  3. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    I'd say the majority of Louis's exhibitions were just that - essentially public sparring sessions with opponents who were no real threat to him. The other man in the ring would normally be a faded former contender like Arturo Godoy, a promising novice like Rex Layne, or simply an unknown journeyman.

    There were exceptions which did blur the line between a competitive fight and an exhibition. The Roscoe Toles bout was one, but Toles was just 20 years old with a modest 9-4-0 record, and some way short of being the fringe contender he later became. Against Pat Valentino, Louis had his eyes on a comeback and undoubtedly fought like it was for real, but Valentino was already blind in one eye following his ko loss to Ezzard Charles and just looking for a payday to cushion his retirement.

    There is a downside for Louis to treating his exhibitions as real fights. Looking down the list of opponents, the only one I can see who was an actual ranked contender at the time was Jimmy Bivins in 1948, who was widely considered to have "won" the bout.
     
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  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Are you saying you think Bivins defeated Louis?

    Joe's time in the Army kept him sharp in a boxing sense and well preserved. Essentially he was there to entrain the troops. One of his army opponents was an army boxing champion. He gave Louis a rough time.
     
  5. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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  6. The Long Count

    The Long Count Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Nice find they said ringside poll had it 9-5 Bivins but that Joe took it easy and had plenty in the reserve. He also weighed in at 220 the same weight he was for the first Ray fight. So he was not exactly in top shape as Bivins was as the article states.
    Yeah I wouldn’t say exhibitions enhance anyone’s legacy but I do find it impressive the type of guys Louis did face and he stopped them often like Ray, Valdes and Valentino.
     
  7. robert ungurean

    robert ungurean Богдан Philadelphia Full Member

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    I find it impressive. Didnt he have in the vicinity of 200 exhibition bouts?
     
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  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Obviously we have to treat them as exhibitions, so they do not form part of his record, but they should be taken into account when assessing his willingness to defend his title.

    A fighter who didn't quite warrant ta title shot, often still got some sort of chance to prove himself against the champion.
     
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  9. ray fritz

    ray fritz Active Member Full Member

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    I believe a lot of Joes exhibits were for G.I,S ,Joe was a great person