does joe louis power realistically compare to other

I said from 1966 onwards. Ali was:
215 vs Chuvalo ([url]https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Muhammad_Ali_vs._George_Chuvalo[/url])
213 vs Williams, which many consider his best form ([url]https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Cleveland_Williams[/url])
Peak Ali was between 210 and 215.

Holmes weighed:
213 vs Cooney ([url]https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Larry_Holmes_vs._Gerry_Cooney[/url])
218 vs Cobb ([url]https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Larry_Holmes_vs._Randall_(Tex)_Cobb[/url])
213 vs Whiterspoon ([url]https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Larry_Holmes_vs._Tim_Witherspoon[/url])
219 vs Frazier ([url]https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Larry_Holmes_vs._Marvis_Frazier[/url])
222 vs Smith ([url]https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Larry_Holmes_vs._James_(Bonecrusher)_Smith[/url])

Isn't that close to/around 215 ?! You act as if 2 pounds more or less make a huge difference.

Holyfield was on steroids. Everyone with a pair of eyes can see that. Only those that are ******ed or extremely stupid say otherwise.
There are even blogs about that: [url]http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2014/03/evander-holyfield-and-steroids.html[/url]
Holyfield has shown clear signs of HGH and other steroid use: abnormal muscle growth, hair loss, health issues (heart failure).
U can even see signs of steroid use in some MMA fighters nowadays. However, back then, testing was close to non-existent.

 

You are cherry picking and Ali was a smidge under 215 against Chuvalo.

The fact is Ali never once hit 215 or more prior to exile.

As a matter of fact Ali's AVERAGE weight from Liston to Folley, his last fight pre exile was 209 pounds. That's the be all and end all right there.

Why are you using all these weights when Holmes was past peak and aged? At best one could try and debate Cooney was the end of his peak. The Witherspoon bout is widely known as the fight where it became obvious he was on the slide. His performances against Smith and Bey straight after were undeniably sub par for him and the fight after those he really showed his age against Williams. His absolute best finished at Cooney or earlier.

You stated 215 not me.

Many argue he was on the slide by Patterson. Prior to that he only hit 213 once when he came in overweight against an easy beat.

Well when exactly did Holyfield start taking steroids? I'm sure a pair of eyes would recognize the exact point within a fight or two.

Also anyone with a pair of eyes can work out a rough period when an ATG was at his peak and average out his weights during this period. Only those that are ******ed or extremely stupid would not be able to.

 

I agree.

 

Regarding pure force, I don´t think his power would translate into the same result Liston onwards.
I often compare his power to Herbie Hide, who was a very impressive 43 KOs/49 wins. But he also showed that power on shortest distance, while Hide could punch extremely solid while moving.
Both did not possess the raw power of Foreman, Bruno, James Smith, Liston, Shavers, Tyson, Lewis, Wlad, Joshua, Tua, Ibeabuchi, Ruddock, Morrison etc. BUT he was a more sharper puncher than some were heavy handed. In other words: Marvis Frazier took a powerful James Smith the distance, while this would not happen against Louis or Hide. Beeing just heavy handed does not say "better puncher".

 

Most of the time it really was Joe's supernatural combinations. But the man could HIT, and I do see his power on the level of a Tyson...just not as busy as prime Mike.

But I have a certain way of looking at punchers:

One-shot atomic bombs: a) level: Shavers, Wilder
b (but still devastating) level: Marciano, Frazier...both could annihilate with one punch, but often wore opponents down with perseverance, testicular fortitude, and relentlessly aggressive tactics. Weaver could be seen seen as in this class as well, though he was far lazier and just plain weirdly disassociated-looking during fights. Ruddock.

Overall, brutal power: a) Foreman (enough said)….
b): Bowe, Lewis, and Liston could be considered here.

Combination devastators:

a) Tyson, Louis
b) somebody help me here lol! Possibly Norton.

I look at both Tyson and Liston as having shown at times attributes of all three categories.

 

he fought buddy Baer around 1940 or so. In his comeback in 1951 he only stopped some 2 of 8 opponents. Why was that ?

 

His punching power was more a result of almost perfect punch mechanics, speed and pinpoint accuracy. He lacked the raw power or heavy handedness of many later HWs, but his ability to string combinations together so crisply would still find him success. His chin is a bigger question mark for me.

 

I agree with this, but Louis had dynamite power ON TOP of these factors too, imo. I haven't made a punchers list in a while, but I'd wager he's in the 8-12 range.

 

1- Marciano
2- Foreman
3- Max Baer
4- Shavers
5- Louis
6- Liston
7- D. Wilder
8- L. Lewis
9- Mike DeJohn
10- Frank Bruno or Ingo

 

Fury leans all over him for a UD.

 

His punching power came as a result of those things. Take them away and he wouldn't be a particularly hard puncher at all. He didn't have the raw strength, size and bone density of the Listons, Foremans, Brunos etc. His devastation came from how accurately and rapidly he could catch fighters with perfectly leveraged shots from multiple angles. It's why I don't particularly rate him in one punch power debates.

 

Totally agree.

 

Wlad and Tyson would comfortably be above some of these, most certainly Bruno.

 

Didn´t you forget Tommy "The Duke" ?

 

Ha. Tommy was an awesome puncher, but for one shot raw power he is clearly behind these guys. He is in the league of Frazier, Dempsey, Tyson, speeding punchers