Does Julio Caesar Chavez make the Top 20 All-Time

He'd be pretty close, but no cigar.

 

But Robinson,Duran, Leonard & Monzon had three more rounds to work with in thier prime's. Chavez was an accumalitive damage type of fighter. Three more rounds and the Taylor fight wouldn't even be an issue. The first Randall fight, Chavez still looked strong & could have got a close decision. We'll never know. If a fighter like Monzon were limited to twelve rounds he might just have been outpointed during his title reign. Arguello also, slow starter & had 15 rounds to catch up to his man.

 

You simply cannot compare guys like Ambers and Ross to Rosario, Ramirez and Camacho. They are different level fighters.

Spotless yes, but not seamless. And really, if Chavez lost the Laporte fight and the Meldrick Taylor fight (i.e. Richard Steele let Meldrick continue), who could really cry robbery?

As for Canzoneri losing to Bummy Davis, that is less relevant than Chavez losing to Willy Wise or 'retiring' against Grover Wiley.

Well, Laporte nearly beat him, and Jose Luis Ramirez all but held his own, so why not? Sure I think it's possible. I think someone like Jimmy McLarnin might also beat him. He was a TOUGH, TOUGH son of a ***** and would take it to Chavez for sure.

Ambers is a much better fighter than either.

Accomplished more? How so? How many of the guys that Chavez beat are considered or ever will be considered great fighters? Meldrick Taylor on a head to head basis MAYBE. Other than that? Canzoneri beat Jimmy McLarnin, Lou Ambers, Kid Chocolate, Jackie Kid Berg - all guys that are unequivocally regarded as GREATS of the sport.

If Grover Wiley can 'retire' Chavez, I think Al Bummy Davis would Ko him before he even steps foot into the ring. Seriously :-(

As for Ross getting beaten, he got beaten by Armstrong in his last fight, going 15 rounds when already past his best, where's the shame in that? It's FAR worse that Chavez didn't even have the balls to complete his fight with Frankie Randall in the rematch.

As for Canzoneri against Meldrick Taylor, Edwin Rosario and Hector Camacho, well he has beaten better fighters so I don't see why he couldn't beat those guys.

Chavez's record ain't anywhere near as good as Canzoneri's. You can't name a single great fighter ANY oppoent that Chavez beat had beaten. Half of his stellar opposition would not have been belt holders in Canzoneri's day.

He's up there, but his career was not better than Canzoneri's despite Tony having some set backs along the way. Tony fought so many good opponents it's ridiculous. His resume is clearly better than Chavez's who faced nothing but glorified Mexican sparring partners for half his career.

 

I think you make a very good point which I hadn't taken into consideration and I agree with what you're saying. I do think that the guys I mentioned: Robinson, Duran, Leonard, and Monzon were more complete fighters.

 

1 Sam Langford
2 Harry Greb
3 Ray Robinson
4 Henry Armstrong
5 Ezzard Charles
6 Roberto Duran
7 Benny Leonard
8 Willie Pep
9 Mickey Walker
10 Bob Fitzsimmons
11 Muhammad Ali
12 Archie Moore
13 Barney Ross
14 Sugar Ray Leonard
15 Charley Burley
16 Joe Louis
17 Barbados Joe Walcott
18 Pernell Whitaker
19 Sandy Saddler
20 Gene Tunney
21 Roy Jones Jr
22 Joe Gans
23 Tony Canzoneri
24 Jimmy Wilde
25 Carlos Monzon

Very quick draft though, bare in mind.

Chavez places for me around #28-30.

 

That's my red face for somehow never having thought of this before. So obvious, yet such a good point that I have never considered before. If Arguello was a 12 round fighter and Chavez a 15 round fighter, their careers would have turned out a bit differently.

 

Good list mate, but 11 places between Leonard and Monzon is a wee bit too much IMO.

 

I would say he does. The best boxer he faced was Whitaker, and I thought Pernell easily beat him, but he was one of the most successful fighters Ive ever seen with that straight ahead fighting style. Usually all slick fighters give guys like that trouble, but Chavez dominated some real solid technicians.
Towards the end when he started slowing you saw what straight punches did to guys with his style.

 

Some set backs? That's spin.

He draws with and then loses to Bud Taylor for the bantamweight title.
He wins the featherweight title then loses it in the first defense.
He loses in his first bid for the lightweight title.
He wins the lightweight title in his second bid then loses it in his fourth defense (this is the best period of his career). He fails to regain it.
He wins the light welterweight title then loses it and fails in an attempt to regain it.
He regains the vacant lightweight title, then loses it again and can't regain it.

That's a lot of set backs, and that's not mentioning the many non-title fights in which he was outclassed and in some cases, given brutal beatings.

I guess I can understand the loss to Bill Petrolle. But why did the loss to Wesley Ramey 1933? According to press accounts Ramey overwhelmed Canzoneri, winning all but two rounds. Canzoneri was embarrassed and promised Ramey a shot at his title. What about Canzoneni's 1931 loss to Sammy Fuller? Canzoneri clearly lost six of the 10 rounds, according to observers. Fuller simply outboxed him. It was dazzling according to ringsiders. What about Chuck Woods in 1935? Harry Dublinski in 1934? Sammy Fuller in 1931? Harry Biltman in 1928? Davey Abad in 1926? Chavez didn't lose fights like this to opponents you never heard of.

Chavez didn't lose any non-title bouts. And he only lost one of his championships in the ring, when he was in his thirties to a outstanding boxer in Randall and then later in his mid-forties to de la Hoya on cuts.

I don't see anything in Ambers that makes me believe he beats Rosario or Camacho. Maybe Ross, but it would be far from a given.

Canzoneri was 31 when he lost to Davis. How old was Chavez when he lost to Wise? I'll tell you. Chavez was 37. THIRTY-SEVEN. He was 43 when he lost to Grover Wiley. FORTY-THREE.

LaPorte, a tough quality fighter, fought a close fight against Chavez. Chavez won. Canzoneri lost a lot fights to tough quality opponents.

By the way, Ross lost four fights not just the one with Armstrong at the end of his career. Ross was 28 years old when he lost to Armstrong, by the way, hardly an old man.


We definitely need some perspective on this thread.

 

I'd be surprised if Chavez fared any better than a Pedro Montanez during that era to be honest. You forget to mention that pretty much all of those setbacks took place against excellent fighters and were avenged. Bottom line is that Canzoneri's resume FAR exceeds Chavez's, and that, while you disect a guy like Canzoneri's career from front to back, your claims regarding Chavez are simplified to statements like "Chavez accomplished more" or "he beat a star-studded cast of fighters" without backing any of it up. You're not fooling anyone by claiming that Chavez was more accomplished, as it's not very difficult to come to the conclusion that such statements are completely backward and foolish.

 

The difference between Canzoneri and Chavez was that Canzoneri was facing great and excellent fighters usually for champion fights, and some very good fighters in between. Chavez was facing very good fighters usually for champion fights and nothing but bums in between.

The attrition rate is always going to be greater for Tony given that this was the case - to mention nothing of the fact that he had more fights than Chavez anyway.

People claim Chavez was a throw back fighter for fighting so many times, but he is NOT a Tony Canzoneri throwback fighter. He didn't face anywhere near the same level of competition. If he did I'd bet he'd lose plenty of fights.

 

You make some points that are not too bad, but i personally won't have any knocking of Lou Ambers or non-consideration of Barney Ross. In their own respectice eras both of them are far more accomplished than Rosario and easily on par with Camacho, this is reflected in h2h ability also imo if you look at their resumes.

 

Check out the number of times they fought as well each year (from the time they hit world level to the time they left world level) :

Canzoneri
1927: 20 times
1928: 11 times
1929: 14 times
1930: 13 times
1931: 10 times
1932: 9 times
1933: 10 times
1934: 6 times
1935: 12 times
1936: 8 times
TOTAL: 113 fights

Chavez
1984: 3 times
1985: 5 times
1986: 5 times
1987: 3 times
1988: 5 times
1989: 6 times
1990: 5 times
1991: 5 times
1992: 6 times
1993: 6 times
1994: 4 times
1995: 3 times
1996: 3 times
TOTAL: 59 fights

Now there's some perspective.:good

 

Will take it into consideration. :good

As I said just a rough draw up, I'm looking to revise it anyway.

 

On par with Camacho? Both fighters take an enormous dump on Camacho's entire existence.