Does Julio Caesar Chavez make the Top 20 All-Time

It's not blasphemy if you can present a strong argument for having him top 10 - but you cannot.

Explain why you think Chavez's resume justifies top 10 status, and I will present you with 10 fighters who have a bulletproof argument for having a far stronger resume and better h2h skill/ability.

 

The thread is about top 20. Let's assume for the sake of argument Chavez is number 1. Give us 20 bulletproof cases that push Chavez out of the top 20. You did a good job on your inventory of points on the Barkley-Duran versus the Hagler-Leonard thread. Something like this for Chavez would be very interesting.

 

Well Chavez was roughly 19-4-2 against fighters who were world Champions at one time or another. & three of those losses were at the end of his career, (2 De La Hoya & Tszyu). Not too Shabby!

 

Yes but his point which I was responding to, was saying JCC was top 10.

But hey, let's do your thing to make it interesting. I am at work now, but I'll bang out a top 20 in the next few hours. :good

 

Have recently became interested in JCC and was wondering if the 3 divisions he dominated so greatly were and great, good, or poor eras. Also is there anyone notable he didn't fight?
Thanks

 

OK...

Beyond Bulletproof: The Nuclear Bomb Shelter
(no argument can be made for ranking JCC above any of these guys so I'm not going to bother explaining why - it should be obvious, and if it isn't, you should start watching, reading & learning)

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1 - Ray Robinson
2 - Sam Langford
3 - Harry Greb
4 - Henry Armstrong
5 - Ezzard Charles
6 - Roberto Duran
7 - Muhammad Ali
8 - Mickey Walker
9 - Willie Pep
10 - Archie Moore
11 - Benny Leonard

Bulletproof
(a clear level above IMO)

12 - Barney Ross
13 - Bob Fitzsimmons
14 - Barbados Joe Walcott
15 - Joe Gans
16 - Ray Leonard
17 - Charley Burley
18 - Pernell Whitaker
19 - Carlos Monzon
20 - Emile Griffith
21 - Tony Canzoneri

Strong Argument for being above Chavez
(not quite bulletproof arguments, but strong to the point of convincing)

22 - Jimmy Wilde
23 - Gene Tunney
24 - Sandy Saddler
25 - Kid Gavilan
26 - Ike Williams
27 - Eder Jofre
28 - Carlos Ortiz
29 - Joe Louis
30 - Jimmy McLarnin

Good Argument for being above Chavez, very debatable, IMO this is the level of Chavez's equals

31 - Roy Jones Jr
32 - Marvin Hagler
33 - Alexis Arguello
34 - Thomas Hearns
35 - Luis Manuel Rodriguez...


I don't have the time, energy or desire to explain each suggestion in depth, but I think I have presented at the very least twenty names that any sensible and knowledgable fan would have to concede deserve to be ranked higher than JCC.

They may very well disagree with who should be in what category etc, but I defy anyone to not be able to choose 20 out of that 35 that should be above him.

 

The 130-140 pound range in which Chavez fought was among the most talented in history. The field included Juan LaPorte, Rocky Lockridge, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Ramirez, Hector Camacho, Meldrick Taylor, Roger Mayweather, Greg Haugen, Ruben Castillo, Lonnie Smith, and Frankie Randall.

 

These are lists. You claimed to be able to make bulletproof arguments. When I complimented your work in the other thread, that consisted of propositional inventories, not lists.

 

Wow! Seven whole modern era fighters managed to break your top thirty.

 

Actually bother to read through this thread, see the list I posted as my own, and the ensuing debate I have with Minotauro. You may then apologize.

 

I claimed to be able to make bulletproof arguments for why he shouldn't be in the top 10. Check back and see.

I have no interest in sitting knocking out hundreds and hundreds of words to prove why he shouldn't be in a top 20. The list speaks for itself. No knowledgable fan cannot pick 20 of those 35 that should be above JCC IMO.

Do you want the bulletproof arguments for 10 or shall we leave it at this?

 

I think you're overrating them as a group (though Chavez's performance v Rosario is one of my most favourite 80s displays of pugilistic brilliance!)

 

It's a damned impressive resume, one of the best in boxing history. The man is a top 20 all-time great. I don't get the controversy, frankly. I'm an old timer, but I don't romanticize bygone days. Chavez in his prime was a machine, a difficult fight for any lightweight, Armstrong and Duran being no exceptions.

 

I'm not as ambitious or consumed with rating fighters from way past history.......but to MrMarvel, its been a pleasure reading your posts in this thread!:good


I can only say that I started watching boxing as a serious fan from 1980 to present, and in that time span, I rate Chavez ahead of such fighters as Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, Whitaker, Hopkins, etc.......

For me, two fighters stand a little ahead of the others during that time frame.....Chavez and Holyfield, though the rest that I mentioned clearly are close behind......

.....dont really care to be bombarded with others disagreeing with me, its merely my opinion.


Mr. Butcher is correct, there is a strong disdain for JC Chavez here on ESB......just my opinion, but I beileve Chavez gets put down and underrated here because of his draw with Whitaker.

Posters hate the fact that Whitaker did'nt get the nod in that fight, and so they let that and to many the discontent that Chavez stopped Taylor with seconds to go, cloud their judgment of Chavez.


I'm glad to read that there are some that fully appreciate the greatness of JC Chavez the fighter!:good

 

Chavez gets "put down" here not because people hate him, but because they question his ability in the biggest fights of his career. Hardly anyone believes the draw was justified against Whitaker, and they are intelligent enough to realise that the Meldrick Taylor fight WAS controversial and another referee MAY have given Taylor a chance to finish the fight. It's not based on hate for Chavez. It's based on questioning his performances against the best guys he fought.

No one is going to proclaim Chavez the greatest of the last 30 years for beating the Greg Haugens, Roger Mayweathers and Jose Luis Ramirezes of the world. Just like no one is going to buy that Camacho was a great fighter because he beat Greg Haugen, Jose Luis Ramirez and Vinny Pazienza. It's how you fair against the elite that ultimately gets the most scrutiny, and rightfully so. And in the opinion of nearly everyone here, there is enough doubt given his biggest performances to question whether he belongs in the top 20 of all time, to say nothing of the top 10. Putting that down to hate pretty much says that you don't know enough about the history of the sport.