Does Langford-Hague exist on film?

Great time, better robbery eh?

I'd go to see it if I wasn't so nonplussed with Devon's last efforts. I might go up to see it though for a fun weekend to get a break from some summer biochemistry. You're right, there's almost no reason I would need to ever head to Carbondale. I do live close to chesterfield though, a matter of minutes.

 

“Jeanette-McVey doesnt exist. Now if you are talking about Langford-Jeanette, then yes, I knew it existed. Ive had it for years and the only reason any of you know it exists is because I found it in the french archive almost ten years ago after which they digitized it and put it on their website, myself and a friend of mine foolishly allowed Clay Moyle to view our copy for research for his book. That wasnt good enough for him and he whined and cried like a little ***** because he couldnt have his own copy. Finally he went from forum to forum pretending to be Christopher Columbus and acting like he had made this great discovery. Which he hadnt. Whatever. I doubt even Clay is brazen enough to deny any of the above but if he is I have all of my paperwork and emails from the archive with dates which back up the fact that I found it and acquired it long before Clay even began working on his Langford book much less came on here acting like he discovered it. I also have all of Clay's emails to me in regards to the film and emails from Raging_Bull who Clay told we had the film and who Clay tried to use to get it from us. Its not the only such film I have found and it wont be the last, but it will be the last one I have found that Clay ever sees.

The above is a perfect example of why so many collectors "hoard" their stuff. That film could have been used to acquire other valuable films, maybe even a Greb fillm. Now its worthless because of a child. Clay had the opportunity to show he could be trusted, just like those of us who ARE trusted now had to do in the past in order to get to a point where we could acquire such films. Clay chose not to and now that door is closed on him.”

I just saw the above post. You’re a real piece of work Steve. For what it’s worth here’s my side of this story. It’s true that one day a few years ago when I visited the home of a mutual friend he told me that he had something exciting to show me and that he and Steve agreed I should have an opportunity to view it. It was the film of this Langford – Jeannette fight. As I recall when I visited our friend’s home Steve happened to be on the phone and I had an opportunity to talk with him. Now I’m not going to claim that I remember everything Steve said to me during that conversation. It was the first time we’d ever spoken by phone. Up until then we’d only ever communicated by email I believe. In any case I’m pretty sure he also said that they both thought I should get a chance to see the film. Again, this was a few years ago, but I don’t remember Steve saying anything to me at all about not telling anyone about the existence of the film, or saying that was a condition of my being allowed to view it. I know for a fact our mutual friend didn’t say anything like that, and will confirm that to this day.

So I got a chance to view the film, easily the best I've ever seen of Langford in action. Of course as soon as I saw it, I wanted a copy, and I asked our friend about getting one. He told me that as much as he’d like to let me have a copy he couldn’t give me one, because he, Steve, and another party had all agreed that they wouldn’t share a copy with anyone because they hoped to be able to trade it at some point in the future with another party for something as equally rare if that opportunity arose.
I was very disappointed, and here’s why. Langford is my guy, my favorite fighter, I spent over seven years researching and writing my book about him. To be honest, I was a little pissed that I wasn’t given an opportunity to go in on the purchase of the film of the Langford – Jeannette fight, especially since I was the one who introduced Steve to our mutual friend. If he were to put himself in my place, and he were the one to introduce me to our mutual friend, and our mutual friend and I had then discovered a rare film of a fight between Tunney and Greb, and we went out and purchased a copy of that film without involving him I think he might understand how I felt at the time. Imagine us then letting him see that Tunney –Greb fight and then telling him we couldn’t let him have a copy.

Now it’s also true that I tried for a long time to find a way to get a copy of the Langford – Jeannette film. I offered our friend a number of possible trades for a copy. But while expressing his regret, he always said as much as he’d like to get me a copy, he couldn’t because the three of them had made this pact between themselves. I never learned from any of them where they got the film.

At some point in time on this forum there was a thread concerning Langford that included a debate as to his merits and I weighed in and voiced an opinion in which I referred to the existence of a fight on film between Langford and Jeannette that I had seen and used that to make a point. I remember that after making that post Steve sent me a personal email in which he said that he didn’t want me to make any further references to that film because they hoped to use it in trade for something else as rare at some point. I agreed not to bring it up any more, but of course I’d already posted the information in that thread. As far as I’m concerned that was the first time that either he or our mutual friend ever said anything to me about not letting anyone else know about the existence of this film. Steve obviously remembers this differently. Our mutual friend doesn’t.

As soon as he saw my post on that thread Raging_Bull sent me a personal message asking who had the Langford-Jeannette film. I told him that they preferred to remain anonymous. He told me he also had some rare fight films and asked me to act as a middle man and convey some trade offers to them. I did, but as it turned out he didn’t have anything that they didn’t already have, or were interested in, so that didn’t go any further.

A few years go by, and eventually, as a result of trying to track down the existence of some other Langford fight film I made contact with an individual who told me he had learned of the existence of this very same Langford – Jeannette fight film, AND he had the website of the outfit that had it. I contacted that website and they granted me the ability to view it on-line. When they granted me the ability to see it on-line I posted the site on a couple of boxing forums.

It’s true that the reason that I first learned of the existence of the Langford – Jeannette fight film was because Steve and our mutual friend shared it with me. But as far as I was concerned once I was informed about it a few years later in a completely unrelated manner, and that individual provided me with the website of the outfit that had it on-line, I should be able to share that information with others.

This message is way too long and I don't know if anyone will else will give a damn about this so I’ll drop it here. Steve was obviously pissed when I posted the website information. I tried to contact him afterward to talk with him and sort this out between us. He ignored my emails and instead voiced his complaints to our friend and on this website. So be it. I’m confident that anyone who seen his posts and the way he interacts with others on this website knows who the real child is. I’m not going to lose any sleep over this issue and won’t waste any more time on it.

 

I thought all Clay did was point to the Gaumont Pathe archives. If he hadn't done so, someone else would surely have come across it sooner or later while searching.

 

Thats a real nice spin you put on things Clay but the proof is in the pudding all of the high points you basically admit to.

The fact is we did you a solid and you continually tried every way you could to pry that film out of us, even using intermediaries. Frankly, your whole story in regards to Raging_Bull etc is B.S. because we had indeed asked you from the beginning, myself especially on that phone call (and others here can vouch for how guarded I am with my films I think they could speak up and say that it would be totally out of character for me agree to let you see the film without asking you to keep it to yourself) because Immediately after I asked you a second time NOT to be bragging about the film on forums I started recieving emails from Craig (raging bull) in regards to a trade for the film. Incidently I have all of those emails as well and they just so happen to start arriving immediately after your posts about the film. Why, out of all of the collectors out there, would this guy all of sudden assume Im the one who has the film and then spent the next several months, along with you, trying to work on me and our friend through you. Come on Clay. Nobody is that stupid.

You have always complained that we didnt give you a chance to purchase the film but ignore the fact that we purchased that film BEFORE you were ever working on a Langford book and before I for one knew that you had a special affinity for Langford. You assume that we had purchased that recently when we let you see it when in fact I had found and acquired that film YEARS before we ever agreed to show it to you and that was, what, four years ago at least? If I included you in on every rare purchase I make (something you could have been a part of if you had been patient) I'd be on the phone with you constantly and your website would be a film site, not a book site.

As I said, neither you, nor anyone else would know anything about that film if it werent for the work I put into finding it and the money I paid to have the thing transferred and digitized. You wouldnt have been able to view it from me, or even the archive even if you went there in person and asked them. So dont tell me about some third party who found it and told you you could view it online which nullified any agreement you made with me (that you never had an intention of honoring any way).

That the one thing all these people who act like Im a jerk who is just hoarding these things to myself seem to forget: If I hadnt put in the leg work, a lot of time, and a shitload of money (which I couldnt even afford at the time) this film you find so precious might be rotting in some vault right now and you may NEVER have gotten to see it, so dont pretend like everything youve done with and about that film since we let you see it wasnt piggy backing on my work. Those same people who talk out of their asses say things like: What have you done to benefit the sport etc. My question is: How much of your time and money have you actually spent preserving these things for posterity?

And for everyone who thinks Im just a selfish *****: Ive helped Clay out as much as I could in several different ways, even after he continued some of the antics I describe above. He's a nice guy, and I have no problem admitting that but this is one situation he handled very badly and hes clearly in the wrong and the select few who know about it and have been aware of it from the beginning agree.

 

How much does it cost to digitize films like Langford-Hague?

 

Steve, we could have hashed this all out between the two of us if you would have been willing to respond to my emails but since you're intent on attacking my character on this site I guess I have no choice but to respond here.

If you're not going to believe me there isn't a lot I can do about it. I'm telling you that I do not recall you saying anything at all during that initial phone conversation about you telling me it was something you didn't ever want me to tell anyone about, and that being a condition of being able to view it. You say you did. What can I tell you. Our friend doesn't remember that being made a condition of it at the time.

I don't know when you acquired the film, all I know is that when I was given the opportunity to view it I was already well into working on the Langford book. This is the first I've ever heard of you having acquired it before that time. I have no interest in being included on rare purchases of film, I'm a book guy, Langford is an exception.

I'm telling you I never gave Craig (Raging Bull) your name, or anybody else's. I didn't tell him you had it. You ask why, out of all the collectors out there, he would assume you were the one with the film. Well I think if you go back and look at that particular thread at the time and the things you posted it may not have been all that hard for him to figure out there was a good chance it was you. If there is one thing I am not, it's a liar. I DID NOT GIVE HIM YOUR NAME.

I'm not sure I understand you're paragraph about the initial work that you did. There was a third party that alerted me to this Jeannette-Langford fight on the website and after that happened I spent some time thinking about the issue and how I learned of the film on that website and asked myself if it could have happened without my learning of the fight's existance from you and our friend a few years ago. I concluded that I would have and made the decision to share the information about the site. Now if you're telling me that it wouldn't even have become available at all on that site without some work that you paid to have done that's news to me, but I'm not sure that's what you're saying. I will say that before posting the information concerning the site on here I briefly game some thought to running my logic by our friend to see if he would agree with my line of thinking, and in light of everything that has transpired since then I wish I had now.

As to you helping me out in a number of different ways, I acknowledge that, but I've also helped you out on a number of occasions. All of this crap we're posting here should have been handled between the two of us as far as I'm concerned.

 

Digitizing isnt what is expensive. Its transferring the film from old film stocks which costs thousands of dollars. I just paid for a very short clip to be transferred that cost several hundred dollars and only ran about 30 seconds. Once that is accomplished digitizing does cost money, and its not cheap either if its done right, but its nothing compared to transferring. If you have a film that is in very bad shape, shrunken, or worn, to the point where it cant be run through a projector you have to pay for what is called step printing. They actually take each individual frame of film (and remember there can be 24 frames per second for sound film and less for silent) and print those frames individually to a new frame of film. That takes a very long time and costs a fortune. I know of one film right now that is an absolute treasure that they have done about 10 mins worth and ran out of money to do the rest. Ten minutes of a twenty round fight... less than three rounds bled them dry and this is a guy who has a lot of money. Its an expensive hobby.

 

But is the fight worth it?　In terms of quality of the film and the significance of the fight?

 

I dont know why you find it so hard to believe that I found and purchased that film long before you were working on the Langford book. All of that was done years ago, before I was even married and long before I had my son who is six years old now.

Back when that film was purchased the only person who I had dealt with on a regular basis about Langford was Kevin Smith, who was working on his own book at the time, and I had a lot better relationship with you than I did him. In fact, some of our earliest conversations in regards to your Langford book, if you recall, were in regards to your hopes that your book would be better researched than his or at least cover different ground. That all took place AFTER this film had been acquired.

I have a lot of films that neither you nor anyone else know even exist. If you find out tomorrow that a certain film exists and I have it it doesnt mean that I just found it yesterday...

Furthermore, when I purchased that film it was a gamble. As I said before, there was nothing online, no way to view it, no notations, nothing. The discovery of that film was all done via long distance phone calls (which in themselves were extremely expensive) at about 3 or 4 in the morning due to the time difference, between myself (who speaks very little French, and a woman in France who speaks very little English) a very significant amount of money was paid (and all of that was a major ordeal as well due to exchange rates, currency differences and fluctations etc) to have film transferred and acquired SIGHT UNSEEN. It was not until I recieved the package by FedEx MONTHS later and watched the Tapes (which should give a hint as to how long ago this was) that I could confirm what was recieved.

There was no going to google, doing a search, getting a hit on Langford, and then viewing the film. That ALL came after I found and paid for that archive to have that film transferred. It would have been impossible because even the French didnt know what they had much less were they able to post it on their website. So to act like I was just sitting on my ass and inviting my best friends to be a part of this secret enterprise designed to thumb my nose at the boxing world is ridiculous. I worked my ****ing ass off on this for months, it all came together piece by piece, and there was no reason that you werent invited to be a part of it other than the fact that at the time the idea was to include as few people as possible and make sure those people had an interest and investment in boxing films (which even you admit you dont).

You may not remember me telling you to keep it under your hat (although I find that odd as its why I wanted to talk to you personally to begin with, and as stated above I think most people who know me here would agree that it would be out of character for me to just agree to let you see something like that and say "Hey, feel free to go tell the world about it...") but I did. Saying our friend doesnt remember me saying that is silly for two reasons: 1. He wasnt on the phone when we had that conversation and 2. He knows damn well my feelings on this. He is the nicest guy I know and probably wants to be left out of it, which I understand, so dont pull him in by saying he doesnt remember this or that because believe me, this is something weve talked about MANY times. You guys are friends and I dont want you or him to feel any animosity between each other. I respect that, so keep this argument between us.

Do you not remember our second conversation via the phone not long after you viewed the film. Where I was anxious to get your reaction, reiterated that I wanted you to keep it quiet and was surprised that you were underwhelmed by Langford's performance (I may be mixing that up, it might have been Jeannette's but I remember you being less ecstatic than I would have expected at the time).

Like I said. You can spin it any way you want. From getting raging bull on us and then later acting as an intermediary between him and our friend to everything else. But the fact remains that it was handled poorly. Dont you think I have been in your situation before where I knew something was out there that I wanted and felt like I was left out of the club? I think everyone who collects this stuff feels like that. The difference between you and I is that I had patience, waited, and worked hard at winning those peoples trust and making sure that I could bring something equally valuable to the table in order to keep that exchange flowing. You cut of your nose to spite your face.

 

It depends on the circumstances. As with anything if I got it from someone who asked me not to let it out I would honor that. I have films that when I got them NOBODY had them and they are now fairly readily available. I agreed to not let them out and I dont, to this day. Now, if it was something that I personally found on Greb and no one else had any say in it. Then yes, I probably would.

 

I guess that depends. To me it is. To someone who doesnt like old time boxing, or doesnt like boxing at all I guess not. But I would say yes without hesitation.

 

Next time you are on your way home let me know. You can pass through Carbondale on your way from Memphis for a slight detour and we can watch some films.

 

How the hell do I know what you were or were not working on years ago, or when you did or didn't acquire anything. All I know is when I first became aware of this particular film. Geez, you're friggin exhausting. I've had my say and this is the last post I'm going to make on this issue. As far as I'm concerned this argument is over.

All I can tell you is I don't recall you saying that to me during that initial conversation, or making it a condition of any kind prior to my viewing it. You say you did. We disagree. It's pointless now. I was very impressed by Langford's performance in the film, I've said a number of times now it's the best film of him out there, and I thought he looked terrific.

Raging bull could tell you how he figured out you were the one who had the film and I'm sure you wouldn't believe him. I didn't give him anybody's name. Believe whatever you want. I don't give a damn what you think at this point.