Does Muhammad Ali deserve to ranked top 5 ATG All Time?

Second Frazier fight in of itself did not start Ali's health spiral.

It was years of allowing both sparring partners and opponents to hit him. Every punch even if partially connecting rattled his brain. Rattle your brain enough and serious issues usually occur. It's seen in Football as well as soccer and I am sure any sports where the head is subjected to jarring blunt force.

I am sure if Ali had stopped fighting after koing Foreman he would be fine today. Retiring after Manillia I would think he would be better not taking beatings from Shavers, Norton, Spinks and Holmes. It's a world tragedy that this great man left us in most ways 25 or so years ago. Can you imagine if he was as he was physically healthy in today's world commenting live from ringside?

 

He's my greatest heavyweight but he doesn't crack my top 5 p4p list.

 

This. A good nuance that can't be omitted when considering his greatness.

 

Saying Norton was better than Foreman and Liston ... doesn't hold water to put it politely.

It's doubtful to say that Frazier was better either since he was smashed like a bug by Foreman.

They were harder stylistically for Ali, though.

He had been out for 3,5 years. The general view at the time was that his lay-off had eroded his skills, and it's a view shared, among others, by the two fighters that faced Ali both before and after his exile: Chuvalo and Patterson.

Frazier was the favorite against Ali for a reason before FOTC.

Not that much difference, really. Liston was arguably better than anyone else Ali ever fought. Besides the losses to Ali he went almost 16 years without a loss, something neither Frazier or Foreman can say.

And Floyd, Terrell, Folley, Jones and Mildenberger compared to Norton, Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis, Young and Lyle... Not much in it, I think. Let's not forget that Floyd in his 30's was robbed by Ellis, had two very close fights with Quarry and beat Bonavena (when 36 or 37).

The main difference is that Ali had a deeper record against top opposition in the 70's but that's because he fought more guys at that level then.

 

I tend to think Frazier would have given Ali tremendous trouble even if Ali were at his absolute peak. I think I recall Dundee or Pacheco once saying that a prime Ali would've shut Frazier out, but I don't buy that. Swarmers tend to give defensive stylists trouble, because the sheer volume of punches will over-tax even the greatest defenses. Still, I wouldn't say the tendency to attribute Ali's bad performances in the 70s to being past prime is a "weak argument." Fighters who rely a lot of speed and reflexes decline most precipitously; it's pretty clear Ali took shots he wouldn't have in his younger version. He also lacked the stamina to maintain distance throughout the fight - which is why he transitioned from a guy who used his feet and upper body reflex to defend to a guy who used clinching and even his face to defend.

 

The thing about prime Ali was he was so QUICK. His legs alone would glide him out of danger. He was a great physical specimen, very strong, tremendous endurance, rapier jab in my opinion the best jab ever at hwt, beautiful combination puncher with great timing and underrated power. No one could give him a real hard fight in his prime years BUT he proved he was as tough as they come in the 70's and past prime. No hwt was as tough or had greater will to win than Ali. It was THIS exhibition of toughness that pushed him to the top on the ATG top ten lists. Prior to this most historians were waiting for him to exhibit all time toughness before ranking him highly.

 

I don't know; Ali's jab at times seems to lack the snap that Liston or Louis' jabs consistently posssessed; heck, even Holmes' jab was a lot stiffer. I would not call him the best heavyweight jabber. But perhaps this is an issue of criteria.

 

Ali absolutely had the best jab as he used it along with his great mobility hitting at angles. Ali's jab was difficult to slip it was that quick and it was a slashing, cutting blow. The Liston jab came straight at you as he was a come straight at you type hwt. Louis could change up as a stalker or as a boxer but he lacked the GREAT mobility and quick side to side movement that made the Ali jab a special weapon.

 

You list Mayweather as one of Leonards notable victories??? Mayweather was nothing. A complete nonentity. Its one of Leonards more meaningless wins.

 

I'd give Holmes the edge for jabs.

 

Heavyweight ranking is h2h. P4P is based upon skill and completeness.

 

At heavyweight? Yes. pound for pound? probably not.

 

True, but an ATG list as it relates to this topic is a p4p list, but I see your point.

 

I have long felt that Ali is generally overrated, overall. In particular, I feel that the perception of Ali's H2H dominance in fantasy fights is somewhat exaggerated. I think there are a handful of heavyweights who would have given him real problems at their absolute best and would have had a very legitimate shot of beating him at his best.

However, he obviously had a legendary career, equipped with some of the biggest wins in the history of the sport, and his unique combination of speed, elusiveness, skill, ring savvy, and heart is something to be respected.