Does size count even just a little bit?

There is a big difference between asking how the smaller heavies of the past would do against Lewis or Klitschko, and asking how they would do against Wilder or Rahman.

Two very different questions!

 

I never once mentioned Marciano anywhere in this thread.

This seems to be a pet tactic of yours whenever you run out of answers. Play the Marciano card.

 

The only fetish on here is the fetish of being afraid of considering anything outside of established opinion. What is the harm in questioning things and offering theories?

 

Mairis Briedis has knocked out a couple 245 pounders.
He's 210lb 6'1

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Charr fought 29 240lb SHWs and 1 200lb guy.
The 200lb guy stopped him the fastest besides only one man.

That mans name? Vitali Klitschko.

 

I haven't ran out of answers.

I did my bit on the growth of HW in previous threads, as you well know because you've quoted them.

Not wanting to see two 250 pound men hugging for 12 rounds, I get that. The problem is excessive clinching not the size of the fighter.

 

Well you won't stop the hugging without making the guys smaller. You can't make them smaller because size is everything now.

There's less hugging at cruiser and those guys are more traditionally sized heavyweights now, 24 hour weigh ins, as you know, that's why I champion a name change for that division so much. Lets put it in line with Olympic boxing and making CW heavyweight.

Let fans of the hugging and oafish tactics concentrate on the largely artificial weight class that is SHW boxing?

Seems to me when evenly matched, sometimes the heavier guys get the harder it is to get out of the way and they are reduced to holding to avoid getting hit.

 

Looks like a traditional HW to me.

 

If we were to add extra weight divisions, say 250lb heavy and 275lb Super heavy class, how would it affect the world title scene? by the time Wilder (or whoever) unifies at 250, defends a couple of times, and then challenges the best 275 lbers for the title, assuming he defends once a year, he will almost certainly be past his best by then and likely get KOd my the young natural 275lber more often than not.

For a cruiserweight like holyfield, by the time he climbs through the ranks he too will almost certainly be past his best by the time he is challenging the superheavys. It is worse for the middles and light heavyweights. They are all past their best by the time they climb. Do you think the introduction of these weightclasses artificially increases the natural weight of the fighters below the top level.

If an old slow version of Toney or Tarver or even Adamek can beat top ten heavywweight opponents, why couldnt slimmer younger versions? if there was only 8 divisions and 1 champion and if fighters fought every month or more against each other, Would the likes of Jones Jr, Toney, Hopkins, Adamek have become top 10 heavyweight contenders in their era. Would the likes of Jeff Harding, Denis Andries, Virgil Hill, Prince Charles Williams, Dariusz Michaelchewski, and many others also beat some of the top 10 heavyweights gargantuans of today. Woudl David Haye have been a player on the heavyweight scene much earlier.

And if the heavyweight division was where all the money was, would the likes of Marvin Hagler or Carlos Monzon be tempted out of their comfort zone, and is it possible that these fighters might just win their share of heavyweight battles.

Everyone knows that size does matter but is it possible that Weight divisions, lack of activity and sancitioning bodies are artificially exaggerating the recent weight increases. Without the cruiserweight division, would the average top 10 heavy list drop by 10 lbs or so?

 

Seems like a sensible suggestion. I am in favour of making the 200-230 bracket more fashionable so if any change can make 230 more desirable than 275 then I am in favour of it.

Once you get past 240 (with few exceptions) it ceases to be boxing.

The artificial weight that can be easily achieved For any individual has been so rife over the last 30 years that boxers are bypassing unfashionable divisions. Nobody is in the right weight class anymore.

We are probably not seeing fighters at their best potential the way the sport is now.

PEDs have given boxers far too much scope. But how do you get rid of it? It is difficult to concentrate what anything is anymore in a historical sense.

on this classic forum we are all historians here making comparisons and finding it more and more difficult to stop things going more wrong than they are already.

 

Yes I do!

This is an excellent point. If the SHW division was in place in Jack Dempseys day by the time he cleaned up at HW he could be challenging a Willard sized guy around the time he was losing to Tunney!

But by the same token, with PEDs Dempsey might be able to bloat himself into that division in the first place, and if he had we might never have seen what he was "as he was" back in the day.

 

That's a point I often wonder.

If Toney can be old and obese and still school the likes of Ruiz, Holyfield and Peter why couldn't the slim line version do the same?

Obviously as Toney increased he was stronger and more durable but could he have repeated the trick weighing 160 on fight night?

I am not sure if every boxer would benefit from the extra weight, so I cop out and say they need it for the fight to be sanctioned.

Every weight class is artificial now because of the same day weigh in changing to 24 hour weigh in.

Chavez enters the ring the same weight as Marciano, but put the two against each other and you'd be laughed off the forum. Yet we expect Marciano to give away tremendous amounts of weight in his fantasy fights.

 

It only goes wrong when we compare h2h fights. There's 3 ways of doing it

Bring the old fighter forward and allow him extra weight.

Bring the modern fighter backwards with a longer fight and same day weigh in.

Entertain a time machine fight with the two as they were in their career.

This is only an issue in the HW division because man has got bigger and so the old HW champion of yesteryear is giving away a lot of weight already so is at a disadvantage from the off.

 

It's easier to be juiced to the eyeballs and carrying a bit of extra fat bulk. There are obvious benefits too.
Whether it's a net benefit to every fighter who does so is another question entirely, and almost certainly NO is the answer.
But since it's easier, and fighters derive confidence from being big, the error is probably quite widespread.

 

I was getting at that point earlier but nobody replied. When did the minimum weight ruling come in to force?

If a CW want's to challenge a HW he shouldn't be made to bulk up to fight him IMO.