Does Sonny Liston divide opinion more than any other heavyweight?

Liston polarizes so many people is because of his mixed performances at various times in his career he is unfairly judged on. Truly frightening before he won the title and it could be very well argued his prime was before he beat Patterson for the title. He then is judged unfairly on his two Ali performances when he was clearly past his best. Most people judge and recognize it wasn't the beast Hagler of the early 80's who fought SRL but for some reason Liston is not given the same benefit of the doubt.

 

Not true. Liston beat a top 10 rated fighter in the world in 1958. Stop spreading nonsense.

 

Please explain this outlandish opinion to the entire forum?

 

Is it really unfair considering his work ethic dropped off a cliff once he won the title? It's not the losses I care about so much as how he reacted to being champ in the first place.

Like a lot of titlists, he let up once he got to the top of the mountain. Only with Sonny, he gets the pass from many because the guy to take advantage of that was Ali.

Make him champ 4 years sooner and you'd just move the timeline forward IMO.

 

And while I'm mentioning things that don't make sense about Liston, why does nobody ever mention the possibility of his wins being fixed?

Dude was mafia owned. People are quick to point out how they could've influenced other facets of his career and life.

Does anyone really believe the mafia wouldn't have been making round prop bets on when guys would fall vs Sonny along the way? It would've been the smartest way to fix fights ever since he was actually a devastating puncher and had an intimidating persona to start with. Nobody would ever question it.

 

I apologise, the NBA rated Sonny #10 at the ass end of 1958...Sonny was firmly behind
Nino Valdez, mike Dejohn, Willie Pastrano, Henry Cooper, Roy Harris and of course even Brian London at that time.

 

So Liston should have gotten a title shot in 1959 as a tuneup for johannson right?

 

No because Sonny was a potential champion and the way it works in boxing is that you string out the good prospects in order to make a bigger money fight with the champion.

It’s called good business.

The tune up guys are contenders who “top out” at a mid table spot. They make the ratings but that’s it. Ripe for a quick payday.

Where as Potential champions never get an early shot. Think about it.

Joe Louis didn’t get his shot until he was already a million dollar gate fighter in non title fights. He had to beat every active ex champion.

Marciano too. He had to beat Layne, Lastarza, Louis, savold and Mathews Ali had to beat Moore, jones, Cooper, lavorante. Second time he had to beat Quarry And Bonavena. Later to get Foreman he had to beat Frazier, Norton,Bugner, Foster, Quarry etc.

So Liston did pretty well in that all he had to beat was Harris, Folley and Machen.

 

"all he had to beat was Harris, Folley, and Machen."

A bit unfair, as he also beat Bethea, DeJohn, Williams, Valdes, Besmanoff, and a few others. He beat more than most before fighting for the title.

 

Yes these were impressive wins against name guys from a circuit of opponents other name guys were beating at the time. Of course Sonny being a potential champion looked better doing it but so-so ranked men beat the same guys. Dejohn was swapping results with old Valdes. Nino himself was nursing crushing defeats. Besmanoff was a loser at contender level. Even Williams was on a run of Billy Fox type wins after Satterfeild had exposed him, in fact it was only losing to Sonny that the big cat career picked up. Williams was not beating ranked men until then. Williams went 10 rounds with a powder puff lightheavyweight Frankie Daniels just before Sonny smoked Daniels in one round. So williams was kind of fed to Sonny at that time. In fact Sonny took a smaller purse in order to land that fight.

Harris, Machen and Folley were Winners. a good step up from this highlight reel of opponents.

 

Satterfield beat Williams 5 years earlier when Williams had just turned 20 years old, was not yet physically mature at only 200lb (prime weight 215lb)..and most IMPORTANTLY Williams took that fight on last minute subs notice, completely unprepared.


Why you keep harping on this victory as if satterfield “exposed” a peak version of Cleveland Williams is mind boggling


I think it’s another transparent troll job

“Williams fed to Sonny”

Think that’s what Sonny thought when he got his nose broken By Williams in the first round? That’s one painful set up

 

Damn, I hope that's putting it mildly.

 

When I look at those fights I dont know how much we can take from them. Liston was involved with the Mafia. It is always gonna be shady. Who really knows for sure what went on? What if he was told to dump it? That is a helluva decision he had in front of him.
Remember though that Sonny lost his title to the greatest heavy of all time. The way he gave it up is the issue I agree. At the very least he was guilty of arrogance going into the fight.

 

Mike Dejohn is a lot better than you are giving him credit for. First of all, he was a big man 6’4 205lb with a thunderous left hook. He could punch. Secondly, he was a top 10 ranked contender when Liston beat him. Dejohn was a 4-1 underdog when he destroyed # 8 ranked Alex Miteff in 1 round. Dejohn also beat baker, Besmanoff, Richardson 2x, flattened Powell in 1 round, and upset the heavily favored bob cleroux. When dejohn took Valdes to close decisions, Valdes was riding a number 2 rating in the world.

Nino Valdes was on his last legs, but he still had enough in him to make Brian London quit on his stool from cuts 5 months later.

Billy Hunter, whom Liston knocked out in two rounds in Jan 1958...Rose to top 10 contender status by 1959


Wayne Bethea was rated 9th in the world. He was crushed in 58 seconds. He was known for having an iron jaw. The only stoppage defeat of his career

Johnny Summerlin was an experienced big time prospect who a young Liston defeated twice in 54. Summerlin went on to crack the top 10 in 1955 and 1956. Damato came close to giving summerlin a title shot in 58.

Liston was not expected to beat summerlin

• In his 1963 biography of Liston, The Champ Nobody Wanted, A.S. Young wrote: "In Detroit, there was talk that Summerlin would knock Liston out in two or three rounds. But when people saw Liston in the gym, the odds began dropping."

Marty Marshall was a top 10 rated light heavyweight who knocked out Bob Satterfield. Liston destroyed him in the rematches