Does SRR have any wins better than Ali vs Liston, Foreman, and Frazier?

Ali and Foreman beat Frazier because they were bigger than him and he had past his prime. Frazier analogous to Armstrong, but not one rans him higher. In fact, no one ranks him remotely close.

 

If you can name a guy with better scalps go for it. Ezzard comes close I admit but he dropped more then Ali

 

I just named numerous.

Charles dropped more because he fought more and he fought much better competition. When did Charles need to go to the Olympics to delay his pro-debut? When did Charles need smelling salts to survive a hack like Cooper? When did Charles get turned into a bobble head against a journeyman like Shavers? When did a guy like Norton ever see the distance against a (literal) killer like Charles?

Ali's record is incredible by Heavyweight standards, but it's still comprised of Heavyweights.

 

I think the time has come to no longer see SRR as a god like many do. He was one of the greatest fighters that ever lived no doubt, but there are other contenders for the p4p king.

 

Not sure what the olympics has to do with Ali delaying his pro career? That doesn’t make any sense. Of course a fighter will try to win gold first. Most properly brought up amateurs do. Ali earned himself a contract right after so was obviously the right move.
AIi was a novice for Cooper 1. And Cooper was no bum. Ali was dominating the fight till ten punch anyway. Think it gets overstated especially considering no one should ever question Ali’s chin considering the men he beat.
I love Charles but he dropped a few himself. Charles comes super close with his scalps. Anyone with Bivins, Walcott, Louis, Maxim, Burley, Archie Moore, Elmer Ray, Rex Layne can’t be discounted

 

My point is Charles had a career of trial by fire. Ali was coddled.

Listen, I am not trying to devalue your argument, but could you explain what is so great about Ali's greatest wins?

IMO, Charles defeating Moore (even if he wasn't yet in his prime) THREE times overshadows Ali's entire career.

 

Let’s take a peak at Ali’s best wins
Sonny Liston I suppose depends where you rank him. I have him as a top six heavyweight ever sometimes top 5. To get wins over a very good version of him is top notch

George Foreman is another guy that’s a top five arguable heavyweight. He’s in the Convo. He was prime

Joe Frazier although maybe not the best version a damn good version and he beat him twice

Floyd Patterson another former champ that still had plenty left. Great win.

Ken Norton Jerry Quarry Jimmy Ellis Ernie Terrell Ron Lyle Bonavena were some of the best contenders (idk if ellis is considered contender or former champ) that ever lived. They proved it through their own records and merit against ranked men. It’s hard to argue that they weren’t great competition because they define you were. That being said I have zero problem if you rank Charles ahead or better comp. pretty comparable.

 

How many rounds did Foreman need to stop Greg Peralta?

Did Liston ever stop Machen?

I understand, these Heavyweights are more impressive than most Heavyweights. But you don't think they're largely famous for having fought Ali? Not that they weren't great in their own right, but their legacy has clearly been inflated by Ali.

Foreman was retired by Young.

Norton, Lyle, Shavers, Mildenberger .... why couldn't Ali make quick work of these guys?

Charles didn't simply face better fighters, he handled them better, too. He was an offensive marvel.

Burley was preoccupied with settling the score with Holman Williams when he met the larger Charles, but Charles was a teenager... and won twice.
To me that's even more impressive than Ali winning his Gold Medal against the heroic Pole.

He may be responsible for having RUINED Bivins and Marshall.

 

This is a perfect example of what I was talking about. Don’t undermine how great Liston and Foreman and Frazier were because they fought Ali. They have their own records and merits. As far as Quarry and Bonavena and Lyle, and Terrell, Ellis look at their records. They have plenty of scalps to their own name. I do tend to agree 70s fighters get overblown but when you have old men like Foreman and Holmes go deep into the 90s and are competitive it speaks to the quality.

 

Sammy Angott >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lennox Lewis.

Whom Ali never even fought.

Sorry, my friend, I could not resist. Forgive me. I just had to get that out of my system.

Even guys like Olson, Abrams and Fullmer were very good opponents. I still can't believe that he didn;t actually KILL Fullmer with that punch. Ali couldn't handle Norton or Spinks.

Robinson was competitive with Archer. Let that sink in.

 

You think that way because HW greats are more known. Greb has clearly the better resume than Ali. So does Charles and Langford.

 

Langford no wayyyy and he lost more to some of those ATGs then he beat them. I do admit I don’t know pre 30s fighters well at all. So Greb I’ll give a maybe. But I’m somewhat familiar with the HWs I def don’t give Langford the nod there. Langford beat no one as good as Foreman, Liston, or Frazier. I know some were real good though.

 

No.

 

I mean, Gans is much better than all of them. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien was probably greater than them as well. Stanley Ketchel, Joe Walcott, Jack Blackburn... all amazing P4P fighters, significantly greater than someone like Liston.

You shouldn't focus too much on HW resume.

 

I won’t argue the point as you certainly could be very right. I know little pre 30s boxing. But I find it hard to fathom I must admit