Does the Ali of Frazier II win FOTC?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Ted Spoon, Aug 12, 2019.


  1. GoldenHulk

    GoldenHulk Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Maybe if Ali clinches as much as he did in the second fight. That second fight of the trilogy was a bore imo.
     
  2. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Well-Known Member Full Member

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    One of the slowest in Ali's career (and as much as I love him that's saying a lot). It was so different from the FOTC.

    Of course, I've still watched the fight dozens of times, and each time I had Frazier ahead by two points in that fight (as opposed to the four I had him ahead by in the FOTC).
     
  3. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Active Member Full Member

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    X2.
    Keeping in mind how far a clowning, out of steam Ali took Frazier in 71, the 66 version would never loose to him. Patterson barely layed a glove on him, bodyshots by Chuvalo didn´t do much either. He was simply better at dishing out pre layoff, more stamina too, leading to an UD or late stoppage.

    72 Ali might still have lost an UD to Frazier.

    In general I think Ali's performance in FOTC is overrated regarding round 10-15. Thrill of FOTC gets mixed up with performance here, because Ali managed to stay in the fight.
     
  4. Positive energy

    Positive energy God is the greatest booted Full Member

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    No way

    60’s Ali destroys the crude Frazier
     
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  5. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The crudity worked toward Frazier's advantage, especially when amped-to-the-max by FOTC.

    60s Ali was, besides Sugar Ray Robinson and perhaps Robert Duran, the greatest fighter who ever lived imo. However, to my eyes Joe Frazier the night of FOTC was the best heavyweight in history.

    Ali in the earliest part of the 70s was only a bare notch down from the 60, and most of it was in his foot movement imo. True, had the Folley-era Ali fought Joe then it would have been an even closer fight.

    I can't get that look on Frazier's face during FOTC out of my mind. Nobody, not even the greatest Tyson, ever looked that doggedly determined in the heavyweights. He wasn't even going to let the greatest heavyweight who ever lived's fussillage of combinations stop him. He was unbeatable at that point...by anyone.
     
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No post FOTC version of Frazier is beating Ali.

    Hello Ted.
     
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    wtf
     
  8. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Just watch what Ali laid on Joe during the FOTC (y'all know exactly what rounds I mean). Does anyone think any other heavyweight before or since could have taken that? The announcers exclaimed about it themselves.

    The Ali of FOTC would have beaten any other heavyweight besides Joe that night imo. The Ali of Frazier II was at the beginning of his decline, the extra-cerebral Foreman win non-withstanding.

    The biggest difference in Ali 60s to FOTC is his relative dearth of dancing, though some might argue it was a sign of maturity. Larry did the same thing, once he mostly shed the Ali influence after the Norton fight he danced much less and instead became flat-footed to get more leverage.
     
  9. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I took it to be synonymous with brutal, which Frazier was (second only to Foreman in this respect...Tyson was more ferocious, vicious though of course he had plenty of brutal moments as well).
     
  10. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft The Cincinnati Cobra Full Member

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    Yes.
     
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  11. Positive energy

    Positive energy God is the greatest booted Full Member

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    We will have to agree to disagree as I don’t rate Frazier it was Ali’s shortcomings that night that made him look so good the guy is a 1 armed come forward plodder
     
  12. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I respectfully recommend you watch, for instance, the Jerry Quarry and Bob Foster fights (just two of many examples) where Frazier's right (including shattering uppercuts) is in evidence as more than powerful. People call him one armed because his hook was SOOO good any above average punch would radically suffer in comparison.

    Pre-Steward Lewis was an example of a one-handed fighter, every fight he was in at the time he made it obvious he was just waiting to land the right and get by otherwise. Frazier was busy and effective with both hands.

    This making of old champs into gods (for example: Larry Holmes "God of the heavyweight jab", Frazier left hook, Bowe uppercut, Ali combinations, etc.) can be both fun and potentially misleading in one's assessment of those fighters. Bowe easily had more of an arsenal than that fight-ending uppercut, Ali waaaaaay more than just combos, Holyfield way more than even heart.

    It's too easy to condescend to the relative weaknesses of fighters for convenience. These were ultimately all multi-dimensional fighters.
     
  13. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Holmes, Louis, and Holyfield are the only ones I can come up with as possibilities.

    I have to defer a bit here...I think Holmes would have parried most of those combinations and aggravated the hell out of Ali with his jab. Holyfield and Louis would have taken a terrible beating but most certainly would have given everything they could back.

    Those guys come to mind :)

    I want to say Marciano, but he would have been so dominated by the height and reach imo. Overwhelmed.
     
  14. GordonGarner65

    GordonGarner65 Active Member Full Member

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    True.
    Which also shows how good Joe was that night.
    Frazier was a shell of himself after the FOTC
     
  15. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft The Cincinnati Cobra Full Member

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    I'd take guys like Chuvalo, McCall, Mercer, Cobb, Wach and Purity to take the punishment Joe did. They wouldn't have a prayer of winning but they'd take the punches. Ike Ibeabuci, Vitali Klitschko and David Tua could do it as well.
    I'd Pick George Foreman under normal circumstances to not be KOed by Ali.
    There are plenty of Chins good enough to take Ali's punches imo.
     


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