Does the Morality of Champions Matter?

As a person slowly fades away in front of us, we tend as a culture to emphasize the 'good' over the 'bad'. That for me, is generally a good thing.

 

I'd say there's a myth fabricated/invented around him.

If it was a case of 'emphasising the good', would be best to stay clear of his views and beliefs on politics and race relations. Because most decent intelligent people would find those beliefs sickening, or just plain stupid.

'Emphasising the good' would focus on his athletic talent, his sense of humour and his wonderfully charismatic showmanship. :good

 

I think you are being too harsh. He was the main figurehead of the anti Vietnam movement, when it was struggling against the might of the US state tools and a split opinion in the general public.

He also choose to be a figurehead in the black power movement. This is considered more controversial, but also played to his strength that you did not mention, that of communicating ideologies to the working class, in a language they can relate to.

 

1. He was part of the anti Vietnam movement, not really due to any political affinity with that movement, but because the US govt. tried to conscript him.
He would have probably done the same thing if he'd been around in WW2 too, since his leader Elijah Muhammad dodged that one, as did several of his followers, and went to jail for it.

Yes, fair play to Ali for standing up for himself against the government. :good


2. His involvement in the 'black power movement' went as far as proclaiming Elijah Muhammad the messenger of God, and complete belief in all those bizarre teachings. It was a religious faith, I guess.
He denounced the progressive/militant Malcolm X, he had no interest in the programme of MLK or civil rights marches, no understanding of the socialist Black Panthers.

* If you listen to what he's actually saying, he's arguing for the status quo of segregation.
His views on race-mixing were particularly offensive.

On top of that, he was full of sh!t anyway, because he probably spent more time with white people than any black fighter before him.
I mean, if you can bring yourself to be friends with Howard Cosell you can probably tolerate the company of any white man.

 

Personally, I don't mind Muhammad Ali at all.
Once you get your head round the fact that he wasn't what people make him out to be, you can still love him for what he was. :good

 

Everything can be spun, as we have both shown. Ali owned the biggest prize in sports three times, and had a big enough personality to use that fame generally to his advantage.

 

Indeed, but what I'm getting at is that there is a case to be made that it's not simply effort that makes the difference between rising up out of your terrible upbringing and being crippled by it. It could be argued that some people are better equipped than others to drag themselves up by their shoelaces, that their intelligence, mental fortitude etc enables them, with the necessary effort, to rise up and make something of themselves. And a person lacking in those same gifts might, even with the same effort, struggle.

 

I'm not 100% sure, but I think Playboy used to re hash a lot of their copy, so the interview might well have been first recorded in the 60's, and reprinted in 75.

 

Last I checked there arent too many boxing gyms in Beverly Hills or white collar neighborhoods, they are MOST often in ghettos or low income areas and cater to the people who are products of those environments. If boxing was like Polo you would have a bunch of well adjusted individuals competing. Boxing or any sport for that matter usually reflects the character of the people that it attracts. There will always be exceptions.

 

Ali had no intelligence worth mentioning. He failed the draft as a moron, and they lowered the grade to accommodate him. That is official. Unofficially if you believe the ranting he did in the 60's about reverse apartheid, how women were no more than possessions, the intentions of the NOI, blah, blah, blah, showed intelligence, then it might just be you that has a problem.

Again the fact that he was parroting the words of numb skulls as opposed to thinking things through for himself shows a decided lack of intelligence.

Other than inner city blacks with feelings of aggrievement no one really gave a sh it about the N.O.I, or The Black Muslims, but Ali needed whites to further his career. Hardly the act of intelligent man to go out of his way to alienate them.

 

I don't see what point you are trying to make. We know boxing gyms are more often than not located in working class areas. So what? There are plenty of people in and from working class areas that are not, s ex offenders, murderers, drug dealers, or whatever else, whether they took up boxing or not. Similarly there are people who WORK their way out of these lower class poverty stricken areas, and never break any laws, because that is what they strive to do.


Personally I was born in the 40's between Whitechapel, and Stepney in the East End of London, and it would have been easy to join gangs and be a problem to everyone else on the manor, but I wanted to get out of the sh ithole, so I did a bit of ducking and diving, and a lot of hard work, and ended up with a few properties that provide me a comfortable lifestyle in my retirement in Spain.

So again, what is your point?

 

No. If you read the whole interview, it deals with the Foreman fight and other events that show it was 1975 or so.

 

So by your estimation, everyone who grew up with a silver spoon in their mouth has the capacity to show compassion and be a right-minded member of society. Everyone who grew up on the other side of the tracks tend to be devoid of this level of humanity and civility, is that right?

With exceptions of course. That's super important.

 

Effects them in the hearts and minds of the nation.

Doesn't have any bearing on my rankings of them.

 

Eh America has a short memory. Ultimately Ali said plenty of stupid, racist stuff but he never refused challenge from white fighters, he never abandoned white trainers, and he just charmed his way out of the presses bad side. His racism was ignored (and not just against whites but blacks; the things he said against Joe Frazier are unforgivable) because he became a symbol and they left the man behind.

Our republican system was meant for a ****geneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed *******s may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.

That's Abraham Lincoln. Of course to even compare Ali to Lincoln is preposterous but we, in schools have simplified the Lincoln mythos to a man pushing for great equality when in reality all he wanted was the end of an evil institution.