Does Tunney go 49-0 against Marcianos Opposition?

"Dempsey, Tunney, Greb . . . the top-rated men from heavyweight to middleweight in 1925 may have run the table with Rocky's comp."

Unfortunately, though, Dempsey didn't run the table against Johnny Sudenberg, or Al Norton, or Fireman Jim Flynn, even individually, ending up with a final record of 58-6-11 according to boxrec.

The middleweight Greb didn't run the table against middles George Chip, Mike Gibbons, Mike O'Doud, and Tiger Flowers, ending up 3-4-2 against these four. Greb also failed to run the table against the ordinary Soldier Bartfield, winning three but losing one and drawing one.

Tunney failed to run the table against Tommy Gavigan, a fighter who had lost 13 of his last 15 coming in.

That is their actual performances.

If we are going to go into fantasies about running the table, I really think Ezzard Charles has a better chance of running the table against Tunney's opposition than any of the 1920's guys have of running the table against Marciano's.

 

I think this is a bottom line. How good was Dempsey at any point? How good was he in 1926 after a three year layoff? The hype on Dempsey leaks over to Tunney and eventually Greb. But if Dempsey was not quite all that good, perhaps beating an old and inactive Dempsey wasn't quite all that big a deal, and therefore perhaps Greb being able to fight Tunney on equal footing also isn't that big a deal.

 

"How many future Hall of Famers did Rocky fight when they were in their 20's?"

How many did Tunney? I think only Greb and he lost to him.

 

No. He would not go 49-0. Walcott and charles would beat him at least once

 

"his lead up to it was pedestrian"

Louis, Layne, Matthews, Savold, LaStarza.

I think it matches most, actually.

"there was a crater in talent due to the war"

There was WWI also, but the great Spanish Flu epidemic of 1918-1920 killed more than both world wars combined. It was the worst disaster to hit humanity since the bubonic plague. An estimated 5% of the world's population died. Over 600,000 in the United States alone. And also, it had a W shaped kill rate. Babies died and very old folks died, but most who died were in their 20's. Caused by overreaction of young immune systems.

So if WWII with its high death rates in Russia and China and the like cratered boxing competition, wouldn't the Spanish Flu have done even more damage during the Dempsey and Tunney years?

Truthfully, I don't like going in this direction, because it boils down to arguing about what didn't exist, which is a shot in the dark.

 

"Gene beat the guy the writers of that generation felt was the #1 heavyweight all time"

"Rocky didn't."

The Boxing Writers of America in a 1980 HBO poll selected Joe Louis as the greatest heavyweight of all time. And Archie Moore as the greatest light-heavy. Marciano knocked them both out. So the polls ends up a wash anyway, not that I think they are what we should judge on.

"Tunney was better than Marciano in pretty much every category."

Not in winning every fight.

 

Greb and Walker were special talents so I lean for the latter. The sport was outrageously popular in the 20s i’m Fairly confident the talent pool was being replenished rather fast. Guys were not lingering around at advanced ages because young good talent was removing them from the scene. The 50s was the geezers club because a generation of young talent had been lost. Louis was old. Archie Moore was around 39 same for Walcott etc. Charles was a little younger but it was clearly an older generation at the top in the 50s. I say that was the war effect but it’s just a theory. I could be way off base.
Yes Marciano leading up to the title went on a good run- I stand corrected on how I worded that I just meant he had a lot of club level fights on his ledger until his final 10 bouts or so. Not knocking the Rock who was a great fighter

 

Boxing was an American dominated sport in the 50s its a fact that many young men - fought, died or were wounded in WW2 or just lost out on their prime because of the was (Conn comes to mind) it’s just a theory but it may play a role on why so many of the top fighters were at advanced ages in the 1950s especially during a time most athletes, athletic prime were over by 32.

 

Harry Greb won 261 fights, and your reply is, "YEAH, but what about those four times he didn't win?"

Good Lord.

And Gene Tunney was 20 when he DREW with Gavigan. He didn't lose. He drew.

What was Rocky doing when he was 20? Rocky was in prison until he was 23 after being court-martialed from the Army for beating and robbing some locals when he was stationed in Europe.

The only "fantasy" is the fantasy some of you have about Marciano.

By the age Marciano turned pro, Tunney had already beaten Hall of Famers Leo Houck (twice) and Battling Levinsky - all-timers with nearly 400 wins between them.

Rocky's best opponents to that point were the drunk Brits he robbed who were stumbling home from the pubs.

 

Apparently you are the one with the fantasies here.

And two greater heavyweight we can't name. Levinsky had 70+ non winning outings as mostly a middle and lightheavy by that point.

Houck was a 5 foot 8, pudgy middleweight at the end of his career, who also managed to drop Tunney.

 

He beat Harry Greb twice when Harry Greb was in his 20s.

And I can't believe you're actually scoffing at someone who beat Harry Greb twice when Greb was in his 20s.

That's how ridiculous this thread has gotten.

Marciano fought an assortment of knock overs for his first 40 wins, then he fought handful of names in their late 30s in his biggest wins ... Dempsey, Greb and Tunney would do fine against that same lineup.

When Rocky was Dempsey's age, Rocky was getting off the floor against a 40 year old light heavy in Moore and bashing around bloated former middleweight Don Cockell ...

While Dempsey was knocking out future champ Jack Sharkey (in Sharkey's prime) and nearly KOing reigning champ Gene Tunney in Tunney's prime.

Dempsey in his 50s probably could've handled the likes of Lee Savold and Willis Applegate the same year Rocky fought them.

 

Where were the drunks who Marciano robbed rated?

Tunney's beating Hall of Famers at the same age Rocky's in jail for beating up civilians, and you're mocking Tunney's opponents?

Get a clue.

 

Good thread, overall.

 

That's the bottom line?

In order to defend Marciano, you're now saying Harry Greb, Gene Tunney and Jack Dempsey probably weren't that good?

Oh man ... you LOSE!

In Dempsey's last year in the sport, he knocked out future champ and Hall of Famer Jack Sharkey (in Sharkey's prime) in seven rounds and nearly KOed reigning champ Gene Tunney in Tunney's prime also in seven rounds.

In Rocky's last year, he was bashing a bloated former middleweight and a 40 year old light heavy (and had to get off the floor against him).

Hell, we should start a new thread regarding how many of Rocky's opponents could a 50-something Dempsey beat if Dempsey challenged them the same year Rocky fought them.

Does Dempsey in his 50s beat Lee Epperson, Harry Bilazarian, John Edwards, Bob Jefferson, Jimmy Weeks, Bill Hardeman, Gilley Ferron, Jimmy Walls, Humphrey Jackson, Gilbert Cardone, Artie Donato, Harold Mitchell, Willis Applegate and any number of those mopes Rocky fought in his first 35 fights? Yes.

At 78, Dempsey was still dangerous enough with his hands to knock out a couple guys who tried to mug him,

The question was never how good were Dempsey, Tunney and Greb, it's how good was this guy who went 49-0 but never fought a great fighter on the rise or at his best.

Tunney would've swept the table. Too big, too fast, too strong against those old-timers and the assortment of nobodies.

 

Yes,

I think Marciano I slightly better than Dempsey overall.

I think if Rocky had 80+ fights vs the same guys Tunney fought, he's losing one. I also think Tunney is losing one vs Rocky's competition as well.