Does Tunney go 49-0 against Marcianos Opposition?

"Tunney was bigger than Marciano"

Don't see the point when we are talking about their opposition.

Tunney fought one fight against a fighter weighing more than 195 lbs. Marciano fought 19.

Good middles such as Jeff Smith and Leo Houck have been mentioned. p4p these guys might be levels better than someone like heavy trial horse Johnny Shkor, but Shkor was 6' 4" or so and 220 lbs. and it is a total shot in the dark to rate him below middles (even Greb) in a head to head sense.

 

49-0 is actually winning all 49 fights.

Tunney didn't win 5 of his fights in the color line era.

"Marciano couldn't survive 85 training camps"

??????

Why he should have all that much trouble with guys a lot smaller than the men he actually fought eludes me.

 

I'd play the field and say Tunney had 68 total fights.

Odds are Maricano looses one of five to Harry Greb ( especially if they are 10 round fights ) , could be caught by Dempsey, and might lose to a guy likes like Loughran, Gibbons, or Levinsky if Marciano had an off night OR they his opponent had a great night.

Rocky had a few off nights, he was pretty poor vs. Savold in a filmed fight, and didn't exactly look good vs Cockell either in another filmed fight.

 

"solid sluggers like Dempsey, Risko, Heeney, Greb"

Only Dempsey of this group is much of a puncher. I don't follow that Tunney fought anything like the punchers Marciano did, with the obvious exception of Dempsey. That middles and light-heavies not even known as punchers at their own weights, would trouble Marciano as punchers seems more than unlikely.

 

If we're going back to ratings before they were champs ...

In the RING Ratings published in February 1925, Tunney faced/would face:
HEAVYWEIGHT
1. Jack Dempsey (champ) (twice) (Hall of Famer)
3. Tommy Gibbons (Hall of Famer)
4. Charlie Weinert
6. Jack Renault
10 Erminio Spalla

LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT
6. Jeff Smith (Hall of Famer)
9. Tommy Loughran (Hall of Famer)
10. Jimmy Delaney (twice)

MIDDLEWEIGHT
1. Harry Greb (champ) (four times) (Hall of Famer)

 

Bigger does not matter much here as none of their opponents were skilled larger men. I don't see a huge difference between 165-175 and 187, primary because Rocky is giving up reach to just above everyone.

The speedy boxer types with good chins and mobility could in theory give Marciano a tough night. Tunney fought a lot of those types. Most notably Greb, Loughran, Gibbons, and Levinsky.

Marciano had close fights with Ted Lowry, and LaStarza for example.

 

Savold ended up in the hospital. Don C helpless. Both lost every round or almost every round. If this is your "off night" you must really be pretty good.

The bottom line with me is whatever off nights he had, Marciano still won. This is fact. It is only guesswork that men who couldn't do the same in their own earlier eras could match him.

 

Louis and Walcott weren't skilled? Whatever.

"Ted Lowry" "LaStarza"

Lowry was a hugely experienced fighter at a point in which Marciano was still very inexperienced. Marciano still got a UD. Tunney failed to beat Gavigan at about the same stage.

"LaStarza"

An unbeaten, more experienced young fighter. If your point is Marciano might lose--of course. But the bottom line in history is he didn't.

I can't see crediting men who didn't in fact match this achievement on the basis of fantasy.

 

Tunney retired in 1928. Those ratings were published in 1929. Tunney isn't even listed as champ in those ratings. They were the Ring Ratings as of February 1929.

 

Well swinging and missing badly to me is an off night, as is fouling.

Marciano did not look good in either fight, Ed. He won because he was going to win via attrition and the fact that neither man could escape.

But the fleet-footed ones Tunney beat could escape, keep up the pace Marciano set, and force him to reset by landing his jab. This is my central point.

Do you really see a big difference between LaStarza and Lowry over Greb, Loughran, Levinsky, and Gibbons? I do not, and its not hard to find primary sources that suggest that both LaStarta and Lowry edged Marciano on points.

So why couldn't the greater combined fights of Greb, Loughran, Levinsky and Gibbons give the Rock a loss? To me, it makes sense they could. I'd pick Rocky to win each fight individually but if he has 8 of them vs the above men, he's likely losing one.

Let's also keep in mind that Marciano was bought along slowly, and only peaked just before he won the title. If he's facing some of Tunney's earlier opponents, that could get him in trouble.

 

The point is fighting and beating top light heavys or cruisers like Andre Ward and Oleksandr Usyk is more impressive than fighting and beating Jason Gavern. They are better fighters, regardless of weight or height.

 

I don't disagree with you that Tunney faced good opposition, even if he missed quite a few guys.

But of your list, he lost to Greb once, and didn't in fact beat either Loughran or Renault.

We are talking about sweeping all opposition on this thread.

 

Tunney was 82-1-1 with 1 no contest.

 

Tunney was 82-1-1 with 1 no contest.

 

Then Rocky Marciano's record severely suffers, because his beating Four Hall of Famers is all he's got.