Does winning the Colored Heavyweight Champ carry the weight as winning an Alpha Title?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ironchamp, Jul 11, 2019 at 8:36 AM.



How does the Colored Title compare to an Alpha Title?

  1. Colored Title is More Prestigious

    43.8%
  2. Alpha Title is More Prestigious

    25.0%
  3. About the Same

    31.3%
  1. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I take it to be more important than the Lineal Championship (which I call the White Non Slavic Championship) so long as the two existed at the same time.
     
  2. Flash24

    Flash24 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Who actually knows? I don't think any of those fights were recorded, theirs very little to go on how good ( or bad) those fighters were. Its just a testament to how racist America was during that time were A "Colored Heavyweight Champ" had to exist for black men to get some sort of recognition for having the ability to be a world class fighter (They certainly wasn't getting the same money as the white fighters) Just A truly horrible time to be alive in America if a person was black.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019 at 7:48 PM
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  3. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Between 1908 and 1952, black men held the world heavyweight title (or the white, non slavic title, as you referred to it) for 22 of those 44 years.

    Guys from all over the world, including black American fighters, fought for the World title or fought the men who would hold or had held the belt.

    All the heavyweight champs between 1900 and 1908 (Jeffries, Hart and Burns) ended up fighting the best colored heavyweight champion from that period, Jack Johnson. (Corbett and Jeffries also fought Peter Jackson).

    Jack Johnson defeated most of the top black fighters before winning the belt and successfully defended against Battling Jim Johnson.

    Jess Willard, who drew the color line when defending the title, beat Jack Johnson for the belt. And Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer and Braddock all fought the top black fighter or a number of the top black fighters of their day (including Harry Wills, George Godfrey, Larry Gains, Joe Louis).

    The only time the colored title really held any weight was during the reign of Jack Dempsey, when Harry Wills couldn't get a title shot. And that was on Dempsey.

    Had Dempsey lost to Firpo or Carpentier or someone outside the U.S., Wills likely would've received a title shot against them.

    On the other hand, the "colored" title was limited by the men who held it and the promoters who staged those fights limited the participants to boxers from the U.S. and Canada. Black champions weren't defending their "colored" title against "colored" fighters from other countries outside North America.

    The colored title might have had the most RESTRICTED requirements of any belt in history. You had to be black and be from North America. (There are more black people in the world than just those living in North America.)

    That didn't make the colored title a WORLD title.

    All it did was make you the best black fighter from North America.

    (And when Jack Johnson was the world champ, the colored champs weren't even the best black fighter from North America.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019 at 10:00 PM
  4. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Member Full Member

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    Whilst the underlined is true it omits the fact that,of the four only Burns risked his title against a black challenger,despite several outstanding ones being available during Jeffries,Hart's, and Corbett's reign.Jeffries and Hart would not defend against Johnson or any other black man,once Champ Corbett wanted nothing to do with a return against Jackson .Willard made the time honored announcement ,that he would not defend against a black fighter,as had Jeffries and Hart,fighting black boxers is one thing ,defending against them once you are champion is entirely another.
    Likes wise Schmeling, Sharkey,Carnera and Baer did not DEFEND against a black challenger.

    White fighters of that period suddenly became color blind when they were challengers and the title was held by a black man,and were more than willing to challenge him!
    You are wrong on the Black Championship being restricted to Canadian and American black fighters.
    Jack Johnson defended the title against Peter Felix born in the West Indies and domiciled in Australia,[he never fought outside it,]Johnson took him out in the opening round.DateFeb19th1907
    In theory,since he was never defeated for it , Peter Jackson is the longest tenured Colored Champion, winning the title from Canadian George Godfrey on 24th Aug 1888.
    Jackson was from the "Danish West Indies" and an Australian citizen.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019 at 2:15 AM
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  5. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Here I would disagree.

    Even when the lineal title was held by somebody like Marvin Hart, it had fairly solid foundations.

    I would say that the Lineal Heavyweight Title had more credibility throughout the color line period, than it did when old Foreman was holding it hostage, or Shannon Briggs had it.
     
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  6. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti The Ad Wolgast of Googling Stuff Full Member

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    Please explain why Bob Armstrong, Frank Childs, and George Byers were so important, despite clearly being a level beneath the top white contenders.
     
  7. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Please to tell me that the opportunities for the black talent pool in the 1890's and early 1900's were equal to that of the white talent pool, that there was not a self-selecting process far down the ladder of opportunity that eliminated or coopted the talent of certain groups. We are not juts discussing the opportunities at the top but the opportunities to reach the middle in order to reach the top. How often were black fighters groomed in the manner of a Jeffires and not discarded on to the scrap heap of handcuffed matches and Battle Royales?

    My initial comment was a bit of taking a p*ss on the subject but there is a grain of truth to it.
     
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  8. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti The Ad Wolgast of Googling Stuff Full Member

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    What about when Sam McVea was being touted as the coming champion?
     
  9. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    The exception does not disprove the rule.
     
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  10. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti The Ad Wolgast of Googling Stuff Full Member

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    Jeffries was also the exception, and it's not like he was babied along. Being touted like Jeffries meant being thrown in the deep end.
     
  11. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    This is the bigger overall point that can't be gotten around in the end
     
  12. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Youngest Ezzard Charles Fan Ever Full Member

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    I'm amazed that there's been a genuine comparison between my pfp No1 and my pick for worst HW champ ever
     
  13. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    No Tim Witherspoons claim is no more prestigious than any of the coloured titles. The line to that title was bullish!t because it was based only upon the WBC saying Holmes should fight a guy who already lost to somebody he beat already.

    While The alpha claims sometimes represent “one of the best in the world” the origin of their line can often stem back to political reasons rather than anything to do with being the “worlds best”. The reason for coloured champions is equally political but At least the the coloured title represented the best black guy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019 at 8:33 AM
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  14. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Not here for the fairy tales Full Member

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    Not sure any titleholder’s claim to being a heavyweight champion is much weaker than Marvin Hart’s claiming the title for beating the mighty Jack Root.
     
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  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Charles Martin?
    Francisco Damiami?
    Manual Charr?
     
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