Does winning the Colored Heavyweight Champ carry the weight as winning an Alpha Title?

Heavyweight champions didn't engage in non-title fights. Middleweight champs engaged in over-the-weigh limit fights, that's why their titles weren't on the line.

And we're talking about the heavyweight title.

But you either already knew that, or you are totally lost.

Either way, I'm done talking to you. BYE.

 

between the 5th and 6th rounds.
[url]1901-09-24[/url] Champion Jim Jeffries v [url]J oe Kennedy[/url]
W Ko 2
time: 2:00 | referee: [url]Eddie Smith[/url]
When Jeff realized that Kennedy could not hurt him he advanced openly and battered his man down. The end came in the second from a short left to the jaw that put Kennedy on the canvas and half through the ropes where he was counted out.
[url]1901-09-17[/url] Jim Jeffries 220 [url]Hank Griffin[/url]180lbs

Hazard's Pavilion, Los Angeles 4rds
Griffin went down from a push in the first round and was knocked down twice by clean punches in the second. From then on he was in survival mode to claim the $100 forfeit. One report, prior to the start of the bout, described Griffin looking like a "famine sufferer". Attendance: 5,000

 

Some historians think that the decision in favor of Hart might have been within realistic parameters for the period.

Either way, Ring Magazine will usually respect a bad decision in their rankings, unless it is borderline madness.

This is very true, but somebody had to succeed Jeffries as champion, and Hart was the best of what was left on paper.

It is right that Hart was in the eliminator to find Jeffries successor.

 

But Jeffries did not choose him,or his opponent. The thing about the Johnson v Hart fight was the referee Alec Greggains was also the promoter.He was known to favour the aggressor in a match ,obviously he wanted crowd pleasers .I don't know who deserved the decision, or if either of them did, but I do think the referee was biased towards Hart.

 

These are all valid points, but you still have to ask what you would do in the situation?

Jeffries has retired.

Johnson has been the standout contender for years, and Hart has a controversial win over him.

You have to pick two contenders to fight for the vacant title.

Hart is probably going to have to be one of them!

If not then who?

 

I've no problem with the pick, just the assertion from Mr Angry that Jeffries chose them,he didn't.

 

I think that some effort was made, to get some sort of verbal agreement from him.

He had to backtrack a bit when he came out of retirement.

 

Okay you got me on that one point.

I think Joe Louis fought non title fights with some opponents that were later included as title fights. He also fought Johnny Shkor in a non title fight and Jersey Joe was actually first considered as a non title fight. Ali fought exhibitions. Larry Holmes Fought exhibitions.

 

That would make for an interesting thread.

Which writers in particular felt that Hart deserved the nod?

I think they were just rationalizing what was a patently unjust ruling on the part of the ref--I'm sure in no small part due to Johnson's race and the fact that the racist Jeffries refused to fight him. Seems plain as day that Johnson thoroughly outboxed Hart and deserved the decision.

 

How do you know Johnson deserved it?

 

He backtracked long before that he said later,when his money was safely in his back pocket, that he had no authority to declare anyone champion or to choose who would contest it.As you know up till then nobody in the short history of the heavyweight title had retired undefeated ,it was an effort to legitimise an eliminator and also to big up the fight financially.

 

Louis fought Johnny Davis which was only recognized as a title fight in NY.
Champion JimJeffries fought Joe Kennedy and Hank Griffin in non title fights.


Wikipedia
"The World Colored Heavyweight Championship was a title awarded to [url]black[/url] boxers in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. This was the only recognized heavyweight championship available to blacks prior to [url]Jack Johnson[/url] winning the [url]world heavyweight title[/url] in 1908. The title continued to exist until the reign of [url]Joe Louis[/url] as universally recognized champ, as the color bar against black heavyweights was enforced during and for a generation after Jack Johnson's reign as world champ.

• Though not sanctioned by any governing body, the colored heavyweight title was publicly recognized due to the color bar in pro boxing in the 19th and early 20th centuries, when white champions drew the color line and would not defend the title against a black man. In the heavyweight division, the color bar was adamantly defended by "The Boston Strong Boy", [url]bare-knuckle boxing[/url] champ [url]John L. Sullivan[/url], the first modern heavyweight champ, who had fought black fighters on his way up to the title but would not defend it against a black man.

​

Succeeding white heavyweight champs [url]James Corbett[/url] and [url]James J. Jeffries[/url] followed the same pattern. Since the white champs had fought black fighters as equals on their way up, the color bar undeniably was maintained due to racial prejudice. Since black boxers were being denied a shot at the world title solely due to their race, the general public gave credence to the colored heavyweight title.

Box Rec

The World Colored Heavyweight Championship was a title awarded to black boxers in the late 1800s and early twentieth century. It was created because white boxers drew the color line and refused to defend the [url]World Heavyweight Championship[/url] against black boxers. The colored title was not sanctioned by a governing body, and sometimes there was more than one claimant to the title.

In 1908, [url]Jack Johnson[/url] [url]defeated[/url] [url]Tommy Burns[/url] to became the first black boxer to win the World Heavyweight Championship. Because Johnson refused to defend against any of the leading black boxers, claiming the fights wouldn't draw crowds, the colored title continued to exist. Every champion after Johnson continued to draw the color line until [url]Jim Braddock[/url] [url]defended[/url] the title against [url]Joe Louis[/url] in 1937. After Louis won the World Heavyweight Championship, the colored title ceased to exist.

No mention of having to be a North American to qualify for challenging for this title. Two Australian heavies fought for it.
DC is full of it!

 

Adam Pollack study's this fight in depth, in his biography of Marvin Hart.

He compares multiple ringside reports, and it does seem to be a fight that legitimately divided opinion.

The traditional narrative that Johnson was robbed looks slightly less certain, the closer you get to it!

 

A lot I've seen said Johnson didn't do enough to win.

It's not hard to find some giving it to Hart.

 

Johnson busted up Hart's face and emerged from the fight completely unscathed. He easily outboxed, outpunched, and outclassed him. I haven't seen any accounts that dispute any of this.

I haven't seen writeups of any other fights where the guy who got his ass kicked is awarded the victory because he showed more gameness and aggression. It's preposterous. The decision stinks and the ref's explanation was garbage. Not sure if the ref was crooked, biased, or just inept and swayed by the crowd.