Dominic Cruz P4P Entry ??? .............

Good points, I think Penn has performed well enough to remain in the top 10.

 

I think there is some validity to both your cases.

MMA bouts are fights, and a points win is not nearly as emphatic as finishing someone inside the distance.

I don't know that Edgar is any more focused on getting the points win than he is focused on finishing his opponent. I think a lot of it comes from being undersized without a lot of punching power.

Popkins, I have a couple questions for you. Do you feel like Cruz is more intent on finishing his opponent than Edgar is? Do you rank Cruz higher than Edgar because you think he has better wins, or is it because you like his style more?

 

Cruz commits to punches, and his desire to land full-blooded combinations often leaves him in the position to be hit with countershots. Although he doesn't have true KO power, he strikes with mean intent, I think his approach will lead to him often stopping good fighters via accumulation now that all his fights will be 5-rounders. He will break guys down. I think he's a fantastic fighter.

 

Fine.

I post:

And you reply directly:

Then I post:

And you reply directly:

:rofl:rofl:rofl You're a confused sort of child.

 

Based more in fiction than fact?

In Frankie Edgar's last 12 fights, he's had one TKO win, one submission win, and gone to the judges' cards TEN TIMES.

How that for some facts? :think

 

I think we can both agree trying to finish and actually getting the finish are two different things, therefore those figures mean absolutely nothing to this discussion. Thanks for trying though.

 

Machida lost once against Shogun. If you play that game, then I can say Penn is 2-1-1 in his last 4 and 1-1 against top 10 fighters in the weight class above him.

 

Well if a guy is actively trying to finish fights in every fight, and manages it twice in 12 fights, then he's incompetent and I'm certainly not a fan of his and never will be. He fails to do what he sets out to do 10 times out of every 12?! If you believe that's true then you believe Frankie Edgar is a much poorer fighter than I believe he is!! :nut

 

lol, floyd got so much **** for not trying to stop baldo it's not even funny


he had him timed to perfection, and could hit him at will

did you even see the fight? or are you just talking out of your ass some more?

 

but he doesn't attempt to finish them....his take-downs are for points...he doesn't work his ass off to improve his position, his GnP is more about keeping busy then trying to stop the fight...

he is a great athlete, and he is winning....he is playing under the rule book....i have more of a problem with the way the fights are judged than the way people are winning....that being said, i still find his style terrible to watch

 

If I'm not mistaken, Cruz comes from a striking background and Edgar comes from a wrestling background. This may explain why Cruz appears to commit to his strikes more. I do think that in his overall arsenal, Edgar is the better technician.

I also think it is important to examine Edgar's record, and realize that he is undersized most of the time.

Edgar won his first 3 fights inside the distance.

Edgar won his 4th fight, against Deividas Taurosevicius, by decision. Taurosevicius has 17 mma fights, and has never lost inside the distance.

Edgar won his 5th fight, against Jim Miller, by decision. Miller is currently 20-2, and has never lost inside the distance.

Edgar won his 6th fight, against Tyson Griffin, by decision. Griffin has only been stopped once in 20 bouts, and that was against the hard hitting Takanori Gomi.

Edgar stopped Mark Bocek in his 7th fight, and that is the only tko loss on Bocek's record.

Edgar out pointed Spencer Fisher in his 8th fight. Fisher has only been finished inside the distance twice in 31 fights.

Edgar lost by decision to Gray Maynard in his 9th fight. Maynard is officially undefeated.

Edgar beat Hermes Franca next, by decision. Franca has been stopped 4 times in 34 fights.

Edgar defeated Sean Sherk by decision. Sherk has been stopped twice in 41 fights.

Edgar submitted Matt Veach, but Veach has been submitted in all 4 of his losses.

Edgar went the distance, twice, with BJ Penn. Penn has been stopped twice in 25 bouts, which was mostly against top notch competition. Penn went the distance with Machida at heavyweight. Machida had previously knocked out Bonnar and Rich Franklin.

Edgar went the distance with Maynard, again.

Again, Edgar is an undersized lightweight; and he is going the distance against people that normally aren't finished inside the distance.

 

Au contraire dear Popkins if you take into account the level of opposition and the weight disadvantage that Edgar consistently faces then those numbers imply that Edgar is indeed an excellent fighter. Either way, it still doesn't account for your accusation that Edgar doesn't try to finish fights. :deal

 

There was no need to type out the longer version of what I already wrote.


1 stoppage and 1 submission from his last 12 fights. TEN decisions.


You can't argue with facts. :good


Mate I'm not saying his record isn't impressive or that he isn't a great fighter, he is. But more often than not, he seems to be fully concerned with ensuring he picks up points rather than taking the necessary risks to close in on a finish. JMHO.

 

Nonsense. :nut

Guys like Kazushi Sakuraba, Wanderlei Silva, Dan Henderson and many more have consistently faced a high level of opposition and significant weight/natural size disadvantages, and yet consistently strived to finish fights. That is a BS excuse.

And even if Edgar was the only guy to ever do so, 1 stoppage and 1 submission from 12 fights still does not "imply he is an excellent fighter", they don't do that at all. All those stats prove is that he has a dire record for finishing fights. atsch

And anyway, I don't need to "prove" my accusation that Edgar doesn't try to finish fights, all I need to do is direct you to the video evidence. Watch his fights. The vast majority of his punches are pitty-pat points scorers, the vast majority of his takedowns he doesn't try to do anything with, he just throws them in to impress the judges.

The evidence is on tape and to be found in the stats.


If as you say he always tries to finish fights, yet fails 10 times out of 12, then he is a far poorer fighter than I believe he is.

I believe he plans to win decisions, and executes his plan extremely well. You believe he comes out to finish fights, yet does not have the abilities to pull this off. In your eyes, he fails to execute his fight plan 10 times out of 12.

I think Edgar is a better fighter than you do: :nut

 

I agree with all of this. He is a great fighter and a great athlete, but he designs gameplans to win on the cards. If people are cool with that approach, then fair enough, I have no quarrel with that. But I'm not cool with it, I don't respect it even though I am well aware of its effectiveness, and if people want to quarrel with that then fine!