donaire vs. mathebula

I kinda disagree, I think Nonito's 2 are a little better. Cordoba was coming off a ko to euro level Dunne. Ramos was underachieving even as a prospect, he was just as bad vs Shimoda but for 1 punch. WV beats him h2h too, he's a lionheart. I only saw Math against Caba, so maybe I'm overrating him.

 

It's extremely difficult for me to see how one could rate Vazquez Jr as a better win than Ramos. Ramos looked mediocre and may have gotten lucky against Shimoda, but what exactly had Vazquez Jr done in that division save getting pounded by old Arce in his one prior step-up fight?

 

OK, let me help with this extremely difficult problem with some extremely hard facts:

1. Ramos was an unimpressive prospect un shobox, ran away from Valdez all night. Generally showed little fighting spirit on several occasions
2. That got him a shot at an unimpressive champ in his 1st defense. He won on a single punch after losing every minute prior to underdog champ, for not throwing any punches
3. Lays down against Rigo after throwing no punches
4. Redeems himself in a life and death win against a middling prospect

WV2 is the anti Canelo:

1. Despite no amateur fights, he asks for title shot before 20th fight
2. Beats the odds vs Sonsona. Beats undefeated olympian
3. Acquits himself very well in upset stoppage to Arce
4. Instead of nursing wounds and milking his marketability, he signs right up for sure carrier ender ko loss to Donaire. Does better than expected
5. Signs right up for Rafa Marquez

Besides, I'm sure WV beats Ramos h2h, double sure after Rico's last fight (credit for heart shown, his best fight).

 

This is an extremely charitable spin on WV2's career, some of which is not fact-based at all. First, Vasquez was a clear favorite vs. Sonsona and did not beat the odds at all vs the undefeated olympian who was moving up two weight classes. Speaking of odds, I likewise find it difficult to state that a fighter losing to a +600 underdog is a case of acquitting himself well; Arce overperformed, but Vazquez also disappointed given his hype going into that fight. His fortitude or whatever in signing up for Donaire and Marquez is tangential to my original point, though I'd note they're also by far the biggest money opponents available to him (see also his call-outs of JuanMa). Nevertheless, the fact that Vazquez took on Donaire immediately after a TKO loss may reflect well on Vazquez, but that makes Donaire's victory look even less resume-enhancing IMO.

I still believe that Ramos' win over Shimoda is better than anything Vazquez did to date, no matter how fortunate he was to get it, and that consequently Rigondeaux's win should be held in higher regard than Donaire's.

 

I didn't know WV was favored vs Sonsona, by how much? I never said he was the underdog to the other guy, it's still a defense, something Ramos has not accomplished. What were the odds on Shimoda Ramos? Which fight were you impressed by Ramos in, Heriberto Ruiz?

The Arce fight only exposed him as green, which you'd only expect with his background. He fought well, with heart, got ground out late by a name vet in a very good fight. I guess Arce's shotness was overrated, like Jhonny earlier. I don't think any fighters in his position take a surefire bad loss in his next fight, after Arce a possible career ender. As an investment he could have done better. Unless he overperforms, as he did.

You think Ramos is more viable long term? Did you see his last fight?

 

Vazquez was -220 vs Sosona. I think Vazquez has more long-term upside than Ramos for a host of reasons, but I simply have a difficult time regarding that win as a particularly notable feather in the cap for Donaire given what he had accomplished up to that point in his career. Shimoda was clearly the most impressive win on either of their resumes for me and Rigondeaux fought Ramos immediately coming off that fight.

 

Ramos beat an underdog champ with 0 defenses, who took the belt from another Japanese 0 defense champ. Plus Shimoda is plainly not that good, Sonsona at least had some talent and hype. You agree with me on WV2 vs Ramos potential, and I assume h2h, but you think the "lineage" argument is too compelling. It's not really when you consider how many paper/weak beltholders there are in boxing. See Shimoda Ramos odds.

You're very rigid about the vacant belt business, how do you feel about Cotto's career? Was Zaveck a better champ at welter? Vacant belt have a bad rep cause they're usually setups, not so much for WV2 Sonsona. Apparently the odds were about the same as Ramos Shimoda, but at least no champ as underdog.

 

My view on Shimoda is not derived primarily from the lineage view but from simply regarding him as a better fighter than you apparently do. The win over Li immediately after he had dethroned Kratingdaenggym was a really good fight and a quality victory in my opinion. I thought he was legitimately top 5-10 in the division going into the Ramos fight and still think he might be at the tail end of the top 10, though I concede that both of these are a product of how weak super bantamweight has been and continues to be.

Incidentally on the vacant belt issue, I will admit that I am probably somewhat rigid about this, but this is often a product of "accomplishments" like winning trinkets in x amount of divisions being regarded as particularly notable and meaningful without any consideration of how such belts have been won. In the case of Cotto, I feel the winning belts in three divisions achievement is especially overstated given the vacant titles won, and one is better off focusing on who he beat and when. In the context of this discussion, I find it amusing when certain Donaire fans here praise his noble desire to unify (while of course simultaneously justifying his not wanting to do so vs. Rigondeaux) without any recognition of the fact that he's only in the position to do so by winning his first belt against an opponent who had just lost it.

 

OK, well there's no issues with his title legitimacy at 112, 118. At 115 he only had an interim title, with all the real titles held by Vic and Narvaez, neither overly excited to defend vs Donaire. So if anything, his belts from there don't do him justice, he was People's Champ. His title at 122 is not that legit, but he's about to unify, should be enough.

 

Yeah I was referring only to 122 there. My only criticism about his work in earlier divisions is that it's a shame he never went lineal in any of them, though this is mainly the result of unfortunate promoter politics.

 

Mathebula is the South African Molina . Wait and watch . Peace .

 

Mathebula was hand picked to make Donair look not good but to look really really good.

 

You being way too kind to Mathebula here bru