Donovan Ruddock vs. Evander Holyfield in Q1 '91

fists of fury · Jun 19, 2013

zadfrak said: ↑

Evander counters him to death--if he can make Ruddock punch. That woeful and anemic punch output of Razor's would keep him in there rounds wise, but it's hard to see him winning rounds. Decision win for Evander in an easy to score bout--along the lines of 11-1 or maybe 10-2 rounds wise.

And Ruddock being Ruddock, would hurt him once but not finish the job. Evander's recouperative powers see him through and it'd be another "if only" bout for Razor.
Click to expand...

Sound analysis and I agree completely.

fists of fury · Jun 19, 2013

IntentionalButt said: ↑

I kind of figured Holyfield would be the fashionable pick - especially with the added benefit of hindsight.

In that day, it may have been seen as more of a pick'em.

Holyfield was 28-0 (22) and Ruddock was 25-1-1 (18.)

Holyfield enjoyed that excellent run at cruiser (Qawi x2, DeLeon, Tillman, Ocasio & Parkey - in all 6-0 with five knockouts in world championship tilts, four of those unification and the last a complete unification involving all three major organizations...enough to be considered the #1 all time at cruiser by widespread acclamation...) and got off to a decent start upon moving up by stopping all seven men he faced and none of them slouches...but, Ruddock would've been the best HW opponent in his career as of then.

Ruddock had only two blemishes - a draw with tomato can Phil Brown and the shock TKO loss to giant super-heavy "palooka" David Jaco. Both were early on when he was green & scrawny and the latter has the added legitimate excuse of having been caused by Ruddock gassing after suffering a fit of asthma in the middle of the contest. He didn't have the # of quality W's that Holyfield did, but he did have a few (Weaver, Bonecrusher, Dokes) on a similar level to most of Holyfield's - in his new division, anyway. In fact, contrasting outcomes with their h2h opponent in common: Holyfield did impressively dispatch the former champ, making him do a chicken dance with plenty of clock left in the increasingly one-sided 10th...but Dokes was technically stopped while standing, only slumping to his knees after Richard Steele had jumped in. Ruddock on the other hand, a year later would knock Dokes out cold in the 4th.

Ruddock had spent the previous five years packing on muscle and gaining his man-strength and improving technically, no longer the gawky low-mileage kid who underwent a spotty learning curve in the early 80's. He didn't have a sparkling resume but looked very impressive and was hailed as perhaps the uncrowned king. (remember, in the first quarter of 1991 hardly anybody yet knew who Lennox Lewis was and Tyson had already been dethroned and lost his aura of invincibility despite rallying back with consecutive KO1 returns to form. Holyfield looked formidable in his 88-90 run, but did seem to have lost a bit of power and certainly wouldn't have been considered heavy enough a hitter to bang with Ruddock or perhaps even consistently get his respect. The seven straight stoppages didn't tell the entire story. Quick Tillis had already been knocked out a bunch of times by then. Holyfield never even dropped him, forcing him to ultimately quit on his stool. Likewise he battered Pinklon Thomas but never put him in even remote jeopardy of leaving his feet - another retirement, by the corner. Alex Stewart was halted on cuts. That leaves the aforementioned Dokes, fragile Rodrigues, unheralded McDonagh and the no-longer-motivated-or-fit Cinderella man Buster Douglas. With each outing the critics murmured with increasing concern that he wouldn't be able to hold off Tyson when they eventually had their anticipated big-money showdown. He didn't appear to even have the requisite pop to get rid of guys whom you wouldn't expect lots of heavies to be able to get rid of. Ruddock did. Even if Holyfield was favored to beat him on points had something materialized, the predominant view was sure to have been that Ruddock was in with a huge puncher's chance - not just a nominal one.

Of course, from our vantage it's easy to point to Ruddock getting decked several times over his 19 rounds with Tyson and to Holyfield vaulting into success against household names Foreman, Cooper, and Holmes before starting his epic rivalry with Bowe and therefore conclude that Holyfield was in better form during that period - but really, would the version Ruddock who twice lost to Kid Dynamite (albeit not without some argument, very game in both tries) have fared all that poorly against the Holyfield who gave up a few rounds to a couple of 42-year old former greats, both of whom rocked him soundly a few times...and who needed to hammer the not-quite-chinny but not-quite-rocksteady Bert Cooper with almost nonstop uppercuts in laboring towards stopping him? :think I'm not sure their performances in that era clearly point to Holyfield being the hands-down better operator at the weight.

I'm not saying Holyfield isn't the right pick - but people might be making snap decisions and not putting adequate thought into this, which it duly merits IMO.
Click to expand...

Excellent post. Well thought out, and nice to see someone making a case for Ruddock. :good

fists of fury · Jun 19, 2013

Azzer85 said: ↑

Very well said, some interesting points there.

Holyfields power or lackof was touched upon in the first bowe fight as well, Lampley asked Bowe why he was so aggressive and he replied something like, Holyfield simply couldnt hurt him

Even in 96 against Tyson, the TKO came more because Tyson was completely out of gas rather than Holyfields punch power. Tyson himself said Holys punches didnt hurt but he (Tyson) was just so off balance

Tyson walks over Holyfield in 91 and Ruddock/Holy would be much more competitve than most people think
Click to expand...

I do believe Holyfield did add something to his punching power when he started scaling around 214. He's actually one of very few fighters that I can think of who seemed to add to his power as he added weight.

For instance, in the first Bowe fight (where he was 205) he couldn't hurt Bowe, yet in the 2nd fight, where he weighed around 214, he staggered Bowe more than once.
To me, his punches seemed to carry more authority then and of course in subsequent fights too.

IntentionalButt · Jun 19, 2013

fists of fury said: ↑

Excellent post. Well thought out, and nice to see someone making a case for Ruddock. :good
Click to expand...

...which, at the end of the day, is devil's advocacy on my part since my gun-to-head pick would be Holyfield on points (though by nothing approaching a whitewash, and I strongly feel he would en route need to pick himself up, dust himself off, and shake off thick cobwebs at least a time or two - which of course we know him to have been capable of doing. His defense was better than average, indeed underrated by some - but he wasn't going to be avoiding that smash over the entire championship distance. In fact, I voted for draw to reflect this vision - Holyfield clearly taking more rounds on hustle & bustle and tidiness, but not with enough of a divide to prevent Ruddock's bonus points from keeping it within the MD/SD/draw sphere)

MonagFam · Jun 19, 2013

Ruddock was on of those fighters that I thought could have been so much more. He had amazing power, and while he might seem "chinny," he has 19 rounds of fighting with Tyson (and arising from that Morrison lefthook) that at least show that he had some toughness.

Maybe he just was never as skilled as I thought he should have been, but being enamored with "smash" didn't help. He seemed effective when he used the right.

Azzer85 · Jun 21, 2013

Ole Mongoose said: ↑

I'd take that with a massive grain of salt. Tyson also admitted he remembered nothing from the 6th round on.
Click to expand...

The same round Holyfield low blowed him, headbutted him and then dropped him?

Ive watched the fight and i agree with Tyson, he didnt seem the same after round 6

The same combo he landed on Michael Dokes

E-j.r. · Jun 21, 2013

This fight wouldn't be that competitive. Ruddock wouldn't even have much of a punchers chance.

Ruddock would be throwing one left hand haymaker at a time and eating right hand counters.

IntentionalButt · Jun 21, 2013

E-j.r. said: ↑

This fight wouldn't be that competitive. Ruddock wouldn't even have much of a punchers chance.

Ruddock would be throwing one left hand haymaker at a time and eating right hand counters.
Click to expand...

...and this pretty much typifies exactly the sort of ignorant unimaginative sheep-like response I expected to make up the majority of responses.

E-j.r. · Jun 21, 2013

In what way was my response "ignorant." Are you telling me Ruddock DIDN'T abandon jabbing and look to take his opponent out by throwing one haymaker at a time?

It really doesn't require a great deal of imagination. Ruddock doesn't have the skill or the work rate to outpoint Holyfield. If you're looking to stop someone as skilled and durable as Holyfield, you're going to have to do more than throw telegraphed left hand haymakers (which was why he couldn't come close to stopping Tyson).

E-j.r. · Jun 21, 2013

IntentionalButt said: ↑

I kind of figured Holyfield would be the fashionable pick - especially with the added benefit of hindsight.

In that day, it may have been seen as more of a pick'em.

Holyfield was 28-0 (22) and Ruddock was 25-1-1 (18.)

Holyfield enjoyed that excellent run at cruiser (Qawi x2, DeLeon, Tillman, Ocasio & Parkey - in all 6-0 with five knockouts in world championship tilts, four of those unification and the last a complete unification involving all three major organizations...enough to be considered the #1 all time at cruiser by widespread acclamation...) and got off to a decent start upon moving up by stopping all seven men he faced and none of them slouches...but, Ruddock would've been the best HW opponent in his career as of then.

Ruddock had only two blemishes - a draw with tomato can Phil Brown and the shock TKO loss to giant super-heavy "palooka" David Jaco. Both were early on when he was green & scrawny and the latter has the added legitimate excuse of having been caused by Ruddock gassing after suffering a fit of asthma in the middle of the contest. He didn't have the # of quality W's that Holyfield did, but he did have a few (Weaver, Bonecrusher, Dokes) on a similar level to most of Holyfield's - in his new division, anyway. In fact, contrasting outcomes with their h2h opponent in common: Holyfield did impressively dispatch the former champ, making him do a chicken dance with plenty of clock left in the increasingly one-sided 10th...but Dokes was technically stopped while standing, only slumping to his knees after Richard Steele had jumped in. Ruddock on the other hand, a year later would knock Dokes out cold in the 4th.

Ruddock had spent the previous five years packing on muscle and gaining his man-strength and improving technically, no longer the gawky low-mileage kid who underwent a spotty learning curve in the early 80's. He didn't have a sparkling resume but looked very impressive and was hailed as perhaps the uncrowned king. (remember, in the first quarter of 1991 hardly anybody yet knew who Lennox Lewis was and Tyson had already been dethroned and lost his aura of invincibility despite rallying back with consecutive KO1 returns to form. Holyfield looked formidable in his 88-90 run, but did seem to have lost a bit of power and certainly wouldn't have been considered heavy enough a hitter to bang with Ruddock or perhaps even consistently get his respect. The seven straight stoppages didn't tell the entire story. Quick Tillis had already been knocked out a bunch of times by then. Holyfield never even dropped him, forcing him to ultimately quit on his stool. Likewise he battered Pinklon Thomas but never put him in even remote jeopardy of leaving his feet - another retirement, by the corner. Alex Stewart was halted on cuts. That leaves the aforementioned Dokes, fragile Rodrigues, unheralded McDonagh and the no-longer-motivated-or-fit Cinderella man Buster Douglas. With each outing the critics murmured with increasing concern that he wouldn't be able to hold off Tyson when they eventually had their anticipated big-money showdown. He didn't appear to even have the requisite pop to get rid of guys whom you wouldn't expect lots of heavies to be able to get rid of. Ruddock did. Even if Holyfield was favored to beat him on points had something materialized, the predominant view was sure to have been that Ruddock was in with a huge puncher's chance - not just a nominal one.

Of course, from our vantage it's easy to point to Ruddock getting decked several times over his 19 rounds with Tyson and to Holyfield vaulting into success against household names Foreman, Cooper, and Holmes before starting his epic rivalry with Bowe and therefore conclude that Holyfield was in better form during that period - but really, would the version Ruddock who twice lost to Kid Dynamite (albeit not without some argument, very game in both tries) have fared all that poorly against the Holyfield who gave up a few rounds to a couple of 42-year old former greats, both of whom rocked him soundly a few times...and who needed to hammer the not-quite-chinny but not-quite-rocksteady Bert Cooper with almost nonstop uppercuts in laboring towards stopping him? :think I'm not sure their performances in that era clearly point to Holyfield being the hands-down better operator at the weight.

I'm not saying Holyfield isn't the right pick - but people might be making snap decisions and not putting adequate thought into this, which it duly merits IMO.
Click to expand...

You've made some good points about whether Holyfield would stop Ruddock. But, if you think this fight would be in the "MD/SD/draw sphere" you have no credibility.

Like, at all.

IntentionalButt · Jun 21, 2013

E-j.r. said: ↑

You've made some good points about whether Holyfield would stop Ruddock. But, if you think this fight would be in the "MD/SD/draw sphere" you have no credibility.

Like, at all.
Click to expand...

If you think giving up several combined rounds to a pair of 42-year-olds (former greats or not) when half their age yourself, and getting shook up by them makes you some insolvable h2h superman in a division where you possess demonstrably lessened power (if not strength), it's you whose credibility screams out to be put under review.

IntentionalButt · Jun 21, 2013

...and yes, I realize he was more like 2/3 their age. It's an expression. :yep

E-j.r. · Jun 21, 2013

IntentionalButt said: ↑

If you think giving up several combined rounds to a pair of 42-year-olds (former greats or not) when half their age yourself, and getting shook up by them makes you some insolvable h2h superman in a division where you possess demonstrably lessened power (if not strength), it's you whose credibility screams out to be put under review.
Click to expand...

How does Holyfield beating two fighters superior to Ruddock lead you to the conclusion that he would lose to Ruddock?

IntentionalButt · Jun 21, 2013

E-j.r. said: ↑

How does Holyfield beating two fighters superior to Ruddock lead you to the conclusion that he lose Ruddock?
Click to expand...

Was 1992 Holmes that much better than Ruddock?

Granted, with prime Holmes there isn't even a discussion to be had, but 92?

E-j.r. · Jun 21, 2013

IntentionalButt said: ↑

Was 1992 Holmes that much better than Ruddock?

Granted, with prime Holmes there isn't even a discussion to be had, but 92?
Click to expand...

He was good enough to convincingly oupoint Ruddock.

Log in or Sign up

Donovan Ruddock vs. Evander Holyfield in Q1 '91

fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

MonagFam Member Full Member

Azzer85 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

E-j.r. New Member Full Member

IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

E-j.r. New Member Full Member

E-j.r. New Member Full Member

IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

E-j.r. New Member Full Member

IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

E-j.r. New Member Full Member

Log in or Sign up

Forums

Donovan Ruddock vs. Evander Holyfield in Q1 '91

fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

MonagFam Member Full Member

Azzer85 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

E-j.r. New Member Full Member

IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

E-j.r. New Member Full Member

E-j.r. New Member Full Member

IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

E-j.r. New Member Full Member

IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

E-j.r. New Member Full Member