Double standards from Fans

Wins over people NOT so good = Ward gets more credit for his wins right now, because he's a young fighter with far less fights and experience than Calzaghe. Ward's fight with Kessler was his first real fight in a very young career, where as Calzaghe's fight with Kessler was one of his first "real" fights and Joe was 35 or 36 years old with 40 plus fights.

Styles = Unlike Calzaghe who just slaps, Ward actually has real skills and throws real punches.

Lack of KO power = Joe is not viewed as a sissy because he doesn't punch hard. He's viewed as a sissy because he slaps. Ward doesn't punch hard, but he throws real punches.

Actual record = After his next fight, Ward's resume will be at least as good as Calzaghe's. Calzaghe is a retired fighter and Ward just started fighting legit opposition two fights ago. You can clearly see his potential based on his skills, confidence, and talent. Just like I could see Chad Dawson's skills and potential at least 5 or 6 years ago. A lot of people think Tim Bradley and Amir Khan could be good fighters and possibly be on the P4P list one day. With some fighters it's just hype and with others it's the real thing. Ward will be one of the best of his time in boxing and Calzaghe was never willing to try.

 

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Is that so, looking at The Rings annual ratings of 1998 says a bit different
1. F Liles
2. J Calzaghe
3. R Woodhall
4. S Ottke
5. C Brewer
6. R Reid
7. T Tate
Liles got KOd by Mitchell, who Calzaghe beat, Joe beat Woodhall, Ottke didnt want to fight Joe, Joe beat Brewer, had already beat Reid and Tate pulled out of fighting Calzaghe and retired. (Idea and info gained from a quote by ESB user Cobbler)

And that dosent go on to all the other top rated fighters he beat

 

not sure about it being a black issue. But he IS an american, AND an american Gold Medalist. Thats a big selling point to prospective boxing fans and Ward fans alike. IMO Boxing is getting more international but the hub is still in the US. Thats why there seems to be a ridiculous fight about Ward / Calzaghe comparisons. Yes, Ward will ALWAYS be favored because he's an american, a gold medalist. Unfortunately nothing in the world will change that favoritism. Any commentator or writer will tend to favor a fighter born of their country as versus one across the pond...

To me, there's not much to compare the two with (besides Mikkel kessler), considering Joe has fought twice more fights and retired and Andre Ward is just barely out of "Top Prospect" status and just now establishing himself. Another 5 years must pass by to even think of giving fair comparisons of the two....

 

That list is **** and any real boxing fan knows this. The Super Middleweight Division was seen as terribly weak up until the last few years. It's been viewed this way since Jones, Benn, Collins, Toney, and Eubank left. Can you honestly compare those bums on that list to the fighters I just mentioned? I know bad fighters when I see them. How much credit does Jones get for beating Liles?

 

Calzaghe pulled out with injury against Johnson on more than one occasion (I believe it may have been 3 but could be wrong on that) but lets not pretend he was worried about Johnson, Calzaghe pulled out of a fight with Sheika 3 times (who beat Johnson) before fighting him and pulled out before Lacy (he had bad hands) but look what happend in both.
Still when Calzaghe was ringside to get the fight on with Johnson at Johnson - Woods 3, Johnson lost again in his career, so Calzaghe didnt avoid Johnson, Johnson blew his chance by losing again

 

You're growing on me noob.......

 

PS- Ridiculous.

 

Open another thread on those guys and we can talk.
Its Wards opponents we are comparing to and Kessler, Calzaghe beat when undefeated, who will possibly be Wards big super 6 victory, and just looking at that 1998 list alone except for Kessler and Ward (based on his Kessler victory), Mitchell who beat Liles, who then lost to Calzaghe has achieved more than the other 4 super 6 fighters, Dirrell, SMW AA and Green have done less than Brewer, Reid and Woodhall on that 1998 list, so how weak is it

 

Cmon - Johnson has many losses on his career to fighters far worse than Calzaghe. Where Johnson used his workrate, toughness and ability to rough people up on the inside, he wouldn't have much success against Calzaghe in this aspect.

Calzaghe has a certified iron chin, while he can be knocked down, he never really seems hurt by the punches. He's rough and tough on the inside and doesn't mind doing his fair share of dirty inside clinches (Salem, Bika and Hopkins all show us this)

Where Johnson is difficult and dangerous for guys who have shakey chins, low stamina and problems with infighting, he wouldn't be dangerous for Calzaghe - Calzaghe works at a higher work rate, is a much sharper fighter and his footwork is much better. It's a shame in hindsight that the fights with Johnson didn't go through based on his performances against Jones Jr and Tarver but are you really doubting that Calzaghe can't beat a guy that Clinton Woods did?

Oh please. American's saw the division as **** because no American except Byron Mitchell really had a place in the division. Like the CW division currently it's rated lowly because there isn't an American contender there.

When Lacy started coming up at 168, the division got press - for all of the hype, Lacy did the division the biggest favour by getting guys to watch it.

As for who Calzaghe didn't face.

Ottke - wouldn't face Calzaghe for 1 euro in Germany, documented fact. Anyone who was robbed or had a close decision against Ottke generally fought Calzaghe in the match afterwards as Calzaghe tried to goad Ottke into the ring - guys who gave Ottke all sorts of problems were destroyed by Calzaghe.

Beyer - similar story, wouldn't face Calzaghe, faced fighters that Calzaghe dominated and either scraped by or was lucky to escape at all.

Hopkins in 1999-2002 - Career payday offered to Hopkins at the time, verbally agreed, then declined - King at the time stated he didn't understand why Hopkins wouldn't take the money and home court advantage over a "Stiff European fighter"

Jones Jr - Stated himself in the lead up to Calzaghe and as Calzaghe was gaining popularity that risk/reward was simply not there and that he rated Calzaghe's skills highly but couldn't make the money he needed to fight him.

Johnson - well documented, should have happened, didn't

Steve Collins - retired so he wouldn't have to face Calzaghe.

Liles - supposed to fight Calzaghe, pulled out at last second, replaced by Tocker Pudwill.

Look at the guys who actively called him out though? Robin Reid, fought him. Richie Woodhall, fought him. Bika, fought him, Lacy, fought him, Kessler, fought him - the two guys he didn't fight who put his name out there - Froch, not big enough while Calzaghe was fighting and Pavlik, lost badly to Hopkins making him not worth it.

Who else was he supposed to fight?

 

Kessler being undefeated has nothing to do with it. Ward beat Kessler easier than Calzaghe did. You say we're only comparing Ward's opponents, but you bring up Calzaghe's? Byron Mitchell was terrible and beating Liles means nothing. Roy Jones gets absolutely no credit for beating him and now he's a legit fighter? I don't even give Roy credit for beating Liles and Roy's one of my favorite fighters.

Achievement doesn't mean you're a better fighter. Common sense should tell you that. Is Joey Maxim viewed as a better fighter than Ezzard Charles? Maxim won the Light Heavyweight title and Charles never did, but everyone views Charles as the greatest of all time in that division. Is David Haye viewed as a better fighter than Qawi? Haye was the undisputed Cruiserweight Champion and Qawi never did that, but he's rated higher all time. Ward, Dirrell, and Froch are very young career wise so it would only make sense that their career records aren't deep yet. How long has Abraham been in the SMW division?

 

Was Jones, Collins, Toney, Eubank, and Benn better than the fighters of Calzaghe's era?

Your number of losses doesn't mean your a bad fighter, especially when a lot of them are still considered bad decisions. Johnson beat Woods in a lot of people's eyes all 3 times. So there's no use of trying to bring that up.

I agree that Ottke didn't want to fight Calzaghe, but Ottke was a bum anyway.

Beyer was also a bum with no talent and very basic skills.

Hopkins didn't take the fight, because he refused to go to the U.K. to fight an unknown fighter who brought nothing to the table. During that time when he turned down the 3 fight deal with Showtime for 9 million which INCLUDED a fight with Calzaghe, he also turned down a 2 fight deal for 8 million with HBO and a rematch with both Roy Jones and Trinidad. Trinidad was a fighter that Hopkins had just destroyed.

Roy Jones wouldn't go to an unknown fighter's country for nothing. He said on a BBC recording that I heard that he was willing to fight Calzaghe. This was back in 2003. Calzaghe is on record saying he had no desire to fight Jones. He was also quoted saying he had no desire to take tough fights. Those quotes have been posted on this site multiple times.

Stevie Collins was old and wanted to retire. Why should he stick around for nothing if he didn't want to?

Liles is nothing. Calzaghe was supposed to fight the winner of the Echols-Brewer fight. Echols won and Calzaghe fought Brewer instead.

Froch and Pavlik weren't big enough, but Bika was? He had a chance to fight Pavlik before Kelly fought Hopkins and he didn't. Chad Dawson and HBO offered him a fight in which Joe turned him down as well. I guess he wasn't as big as Bika either.

 

Cmon, Echols? The same guy who lost to Mundine? This is why I don't take people seriously, because you make statements like this that are just laughable.

As for Roy Jones Jr - Calzaghe said he would go to the states to fight him in about 2002, the same time he was looking at fighting Hopkins in the state side. Calzaghe's quote about facing tough fighters is often out of context - "I won't go over to the states to face tough fights without the money being there man" was the actual context in which he quoted it - the idea that Calzaghe demanded to fight these guys in the UK is wrong, the fight negotiated by King for $3 mil to Hopkins, $1 mil to Calzaghe would take place in NYC. Calzaghe fought both Hopkins and Jones Jr stateside, also.

Take Jones Jr out of your list and are those guys really any better than Calzaghe? I mean they definitely had more popularity, notoriety and bigger stages to fight on but look at the facts - all of them lost to worse fighters than B-Hop (even at the stage he fought Calzaghe) and arguably guys like Mitchell, Kessler, Reid, Starie, Mitchell and Woodhall would have been competitive amongst those guys - arguably.

Thing is, boxing is held ransom to nostalgia - fighters from previous eras are always rated more highly than fighters in the current era. You want proof? Take a look at what the word was on Lennox Lewis in 2000 vs Lennox Lewis in 2010.

 

Double standards run rampant on ESB. It's not just this one time. It is the norm around here.

 

Your involved in an intelligent debate somewhere? Please tell me you think Pascal stands a chance in the Dawson fight.

 

This is a typical Cokzaghe nuthugger post. Joe didn't need to fight anyone because he would have beat them? Joe Mesi is probably your number one heavyweight of all time. You guys try to get way too much mileage out of Joe's undefeated record. He simply never proved he was anything special, he had two top quality wins in his entire career. SM and cruiser are considered **** divisions because they are new and they are not premiere divisions. There have been very few quality fighters in the history of either division and quite frankly given the weakness in the divisions over the years boxing would be better off without either division.