"Drama in the Bahama" - a complete failure

If Holmes had wisely avoided a rematch with Ali, Spinks would have taken the challenge to, at the very least, avenge his brother.

What a great match-up we were robbed of... 1985 Spinks vs. Ali. I believe that Ali could have stopped Mike with a right hand, similar in some ways to the one with which Tyson turned the trick but from longer range.

 

We can have that philosophical debate, but what I was trying to speak to was the debate at the time. And most came down on the side of ‘it’s his life, he should be able to live it as he chooses’ regarding whether he should be ‘allowed’ to fight or not.

Parkinson’s wasn’t diagnosed until three years later. Ali had checked himself into UCLA medical center for four days for a full battery of tests and the report concluded that he was within normal limits and there was no medical reason he could not box. What we know now has no bearing on the debate at the time.

I am not advocating that Ali should have fought or even been allowed to do so. I’m talking about the discussion at the time.

As for the greater philosophical discussion, I do believe most people in the free world then and now generally believe that someone should be able to do things risky and even harmful to themselves if they choose.

Yes, there are seat belt laws. But it’s only a fine — there is a penalty for choosing such risky behavior, but there is no mandate that anyone who does not wear a seat belt should be locked up for their own good or even lose their driving privileges.

By no means a comprehensive list, but people are allowed to:

Consume alcohol, even though it clearly isn’t good for you, can lead to addiction (alcoholism) and even death.

Smoke, even though all medical evidence warns it is harmful and even lethal over time.

Box, despite the fact that people die in the ring and many end up with pugilistic dementia/CTE.

Hell, they let Evel Knievel jump motorcycles despite him breaking damned near every bone in his body in crashes. People are allowed to climb mountains without using basic safety equipment like ropes attached to them. Etc, etc.

Yes, there are limits. We don’t allow gun duels (anymore). We do not license people with proven brain damage to keep boxing … but we allow boxers who have been KO’d multiple times to keep fighting.

Ray Robinson and Joe Louis and Ezzard Charles were icons who fought on well beyond their sell-by dates, and while people say they ‘should’ have retired earlier, they were not forced to do so. Roy Jones Jr is a more recent example.

 

Ali was still alive in early 2016, Wilder always had major gaps in skills-& ALi handled big sluggers very well.
Maybe Ali could still have beaten Wilder up until June 3rd, my birthday, when he died.
Louis & Dempsey also were giant killers, perhaps we can reanimate what is left of their corpses & regrow their braiaiaians with the DNA & they could win today.

But seriously-besides the immorality of sanctioning it, are you being super-dry humored, or actually believe that Ali in 1986 is likely to beat Tyson who started his prime in mid-1986, about 5 years after Berbick?!?

 

OK now I see that thankfully at least about Ali's capacity for victory years after Holmes & Berbick, you are slyly pulling our leg.

 

I did not know they left Clinically Insane & Severely Delusional patients at big Mental Institutions so much free time to post!But really you are just pushing the envelope to see how far you can make us believe...you believe this.

Why stop at Lewis?
Ali might have won just before he hit his death bed, Mid-2016.
Sure he could barely move for years, but it just takes one moment of Glory when a burst of adrenaline catches, oh, say Wilder or Fury Recklessly coming in for the kill quickly, & like the "Phantom Punch" 50 + years earlier, Ali is HW champion ONCE AGAIN!

 

Did he? I have heard that after endless time Ali seemed to make amends with Frazier, then say something instigating & they did not stay reconciled.
Tell me if you think that is incorrect.
If he was so sorry, I would think he would go public with his vicious racist personal attacks, mockery, using racism as a weapon after Frazier lobbied to get him reinstated at the highest level & gave him money when Ali was banned from boxing.

Ali was delusional about things like being able to rematch Holmes, he did not brook any pity, I would be surprised if he had regrets about his last 2 fights.

 

OK, when you said the debate at the time & then generalized about the philosophy, I could not tell you meant it to be about the actual fight.
Of course when his condition was not fully known then people are way more likely to want him to be allowed to fight.

That degree of risk they thought existed does not show that most would want Ali to fight as he really was-but your point is well taken.
But just seeing his mummified performance against Holmes showed how he at least should not be fighting anywhere near top boxers.

Smoking & drinking (may be fine in small quantities) + boxing are balancing acts where something like the risk of alcohomism is weighed against the rights of most to enjoy t recreationally.
Although history/are substances & habits entrenched, economic impact & what folks want often are the reasons for allowing things, not just weighing rights vs. harm dispassionately.

Being knocked out a few times may well be a lot less risky than damage from concussions that football players take.
It is all debateable, & seat belts are not punished strongly because the risk of not using them is tiny each time/drive.

We & others draw the line at different places.

 

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Seamus = Boxed Ears.

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Yes, on occasion, Seamus does like to troll, troll, troll his boat gently and merrily down the fantasy stream.

On those occasions, and clearly so, his life is but a dream. Bazinga!

 

I'm joking my friend, going along with Seamus, unless he actually believes that Ali whip's the ass of all early/late 80 s heavy s.
It's hard to tell on here sometimes If someone's messing around but you get to know certain posters sense of humour.

 

Shamus is dumdum needs spanking velly badl

 

I have often thought fighters like Ali being allowed, indeed encouraged to go on way too long to the detriment of their health is a prime example of the comodification not of the human being as a means of production, but of the human spirit itself. The comodification of 'geist' in both its traditional and Hegelian meaning. 'Society' viewed Ali as much more than a man. He was a symbol of both the American dream in a traditional rags to riches, and the overcoming of adversity way, and as a symbolic rebirth of the new American dream, standing up to systemic racism, freedom of choice in religion, agency etc... His spirit, and the spirit of his time, the 60s through the 70s was amongst the strongest and purest in history. Yet this spirit was, and still is commodified by 'the man'. The 'spirit of the 60s' was peace, love, courage and tenderness all now underpinned with dollar signs and a fond remembrance of a misremembered and largely imagined past.

Ali exhibited freedom of choice for sure, but like ultimate freedom of choice the question remains, do we have it? Were we given it, and does living in such an interlinked and collectively dependent society not undermine and in many (most?) cases preclude pure freedom of choice from happening?

I freely admit to being an idealistic old hippie, but for me, the best ideas, the best people, and the worst, are commodified and the seeds that grow these trees, trees that we will all only sit in the shade of briefly, but whose shade will provide our relatives, loved ones and, yes, Society itself with relief and inspiration for exactly as long as there is a sheckel to be made, are planted with this very idea in mind. Long term commodification. Nobody plants a tree because its pretty, not even mother nature, they are planted to serve a purpose.

Ali was as exploited, perhaps more so, as any fighter and his own agency, stubbornness, heart improved the zeitgeist of a global society, still does. The fact that by the time the juice wasn't worth the squeeze, people were still squeezing for every last drop speaks of the lack of compassion both our capitalist and cultural society can have, and both these societies can be beautiful partners or tyrannical rulers.

...and whoda thunk this thread would head in this direction? Welcome to my headspace.

Peace and love all, Px

 

I don't think so because the loss to L.Spinks was a shocking loss and winning back the title from L.Spinks doesn't really add anything to his legacy IMO.

All it shows to me is how far Ali had slipped at that time.

Ali retiring after the settling the rivalry with Frazier in 1975 he still would've been seen as the number 1 or 2 Heavyweight of all time.

Except Ali would have far less bad moments in his career and he would've been healthier aswell.

Imagine Ali without the controversial decisions vs Norton 3, Shavers, Young, and without the losses to L.Spinks, Holmes, Berbick.