Dundees, Ali and the Liston dives

Yep the book that claim Moore thown the Marciano fight.

 

In the first Clay fight, Liston did what Archie Moore would never done. QUIT before a beating.

 

that's exactly how i feel about the fights. the 1st was legit, the second a dive.
the way sonny rolls around the floor looks more like a fight scene from a b-grade boxing movie. kind of like the way zora foley "stumbles" around the ring against ali.
still, doesn't affect ali's legacy.

 

BS These stories are always the same I know this guy i cant name bla bla bla, utter Bull ****!

 

In a pigs eye.

If there was any fight Moore would have thrown it was Patterson. Moore was ahead on all cards until being stopped.

 

no patterson was ahead on all 3 cars by a wide margin vs Moore

 

Excuse my ignorance then.

 

The film I believe refutes beyond any reasonable doubt the notion of Liston wearing any kind of cuffs in Fight 1. Whew! What dynamite he throws! Cutting the air with hooks and crosses and slamming away mercilessly at Clay's body in Round 5. No. It was on the level.

As far as Fight 2 is concerned, this is from "Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times":

JOSE TORRES: "The room was empty. Liston was embarrassed and very depressed. My first question was, 'Did you see the punch?' And he told me, 'Yes, but I saw it too late.' That was it. In boxing, the punch that knocks you out is not the hard punch. It's the punch you don't see coming. And Ali was a master at that. He punched so fast, he didn't you give you a chance to prepare for the blow. If Ali had gone to a neutral corner, I don't know if Sonny could have gotten up by ten or not. He never got a proper count, but he was hurt, and I'm not sure he wanted to face Ali. Sonny was afraid of crazy people, and he thought Ali was crazy. Before the fight, he'd told me about his experiences in jail. I'd heard about what happens to prisoners with **** and sodomy, so I'd asked Liston if he'd had problems like that. And he told me no one had done anything like that to him because everyone in prison was afraid of him, but he had been afraid of the crazy prisoners."

SONNY LISTON (TWO YEARS AFTER THE FIGHT): "I can tell you what happened there. Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch. I was down but not hurt, but I looked up and saw Ali standing over me. Now there is no way to get up from the canvas that you are not exposed to a great shot. Ali is waiting to hit me, the ref can't control him. I have to put one knee and one glove on the canvas to get up. You know Ali is a nut. You can tell what a normal man is going to do, but you can't tell what a nut is going to do, and Ali is a nut."

In the case of religious organizations, they all have the "mind and pocket" of their members to some degree. I'm sure this gentleman's assertion is sincere, but, regarding these two fights and their circumstances, all things being weighed, I believe the verdict should be: a) Clay bettered Liston fair and square in the ring in Fight 1. b) In the rematch, Ali knocked Liston down and Liston quit.

 

no its ok boxrec originally made a mistake, but they switched it correctly. this was pattersons best performance on film and one of archies worst. If they fought a rematch, I think this fight would be alot closer even in 1956.

 

Liston's own words:

Sonny cleared his throat, sat up and began talking like a man who is discussing a painful subject for the absolute last time. "Clay caught me cold and the count was messed up, and that's all they was to it," he said. "Clay knocked me down with a good punch. Anybody can get caught cold in the first round, before you even work up a sweat. And when I was down, Clay stood right over me. No, I never blacked out, not for a second. But I wasn't gonna get up, either, not with him standin' over me. See, you can't get up without puttin' one hand on the floor, and so I couldn't protect myself, and he can hit me on the way up.

"So there was Walcott [Referee Jersey Joe Walcott] and Clay wrasslin' over me and Walcott finally got him to a corner or somethin', and then I got up and Clay come back and we started back to fightin' again.

"And Nat Fletcher [ Nat Fleischer, editor of The Ring Magazine] began wavin' his arms at ringside and Walcott stopped the fight. Nowadays Nat Fletcher says he was just callin' Walcott over to tell him that the timekeeper wanted to see him or somethin', but other people says it was Nat Fletcher stopped the fight.

"I was never counted out. I coulda got up even right after I was hit. And I still felt pretty good when I did get up. I mean I could still go on. What Walcott shoulda done, he shoulda sent Cassius to a neutral corner. When the referees call you out in the center of the ring before a fight, they tells you that: go to a neutral corner. And that's when they count you out, not with no fighter standin' right over you.

"They shouldn't have fighters refereein' no fights no way," Sonny added, now back in his horizontal position. "They should have people that don't get excited."

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1081166/6/index.htm

 

If it really was true I doubt the Dundee's, Ali, Liston or anyone else would be telling their friends/relatives about it.

 

Sonny Liston was obviously hurting in his first fight with Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali. There was a punch in the second fight. I saw it. I am in no position to judge the effect it had on Sonny. I have never been one to easily accept dives and conspiracies. To my knowledge, Sonny never admitted that he took a dive...confusion, concern, yes. Until I see definite proof that Sonny took an outright dive in either fight, I'll give Sonny Liston the benefit of the doubt in both.

 

I've seen the film, he was shot in the face.

 

The thing that bothers me with the secnd fight is how contrived it looks when Liston seemingly tries to get up, but falls over. As others here have said, it looks like bad acting. But I have no problem with the punch knocking him down, though. There I think Liston's own explanation sounds perfectly plausible. If he hadn't looked so silly rolling around I would have no problems with it at all.