Duràn(Moore beatdown) vs McCallum (super welterweight)

Does the average person know who Benavidez is? How about Beterbiev? They know Canelo and Jake ****ing Paul. Same thing with that era. I'm not arguing of McCallum could sell a pay per view or was well known by the average sports fan Boxing people absolutely knew who he was and the nobody wanted to fight him because of the risk/reward. In the mid 80's, the American PPV buying public didn't care about McCallum not because he wasn't good but because he was Jamaican and not a personality like Ray Leonard or a vilian like Duran that had a large Latino population behind him. McCallum simply never sold tickets but that doesn't mean he was inferior as a fighter. I guess Jake Paul is a better fighter than Uysk since he clearly is more known and sells more tickets.

Do you think Rocky Graziano or Tony Zale were the best middleweights of the 40's? The general public thought they were but boxing folks knew that Charlie Burley, Holman Williams and Lyod Marshall were. Boxing is not a fair sport from a marketing standpoint. There is reality and there is bull****.

 

Well there's a difference fighters like Burley, Williams, Marshall, had amazing resumes McCallum did not at that time. I'm not saying McCallum was an inferior fighter because he didn't sell tickets i'm saying if he was to fight Duran in a realistic scenario it would be a huge step up in competition. At that time McCallum was not mixing it at world level he was still a prospect, and as i said if Duran can move up in weight and give Hagler all he could handle i don't see why he wouldn't give McCallum who was still a rising prospect all he could handle either.

I personally don't see the logic behind McCallum being able to beat Duran handily based on how they match up.

 

So you don't see the logic behind McCallum beating Duran at 154. The same Duran that lost to Kirkland Lang a year earlier and Robbie Sims a year or two later? We are done here kid. I'm not wasting anymore time discussing this with someone that wasn't even alive at this time period. Duran is a greater fighter than McCallum but not at 154 and certainly not in the mid eighties. Again, Duran never beat another hall of famer and his best win after this time period was against Barkely who was wildly inconsistent.

 

Duran is an all time great, McCallum is not. A prepared Duran wins

 

I’d favor McCallum at that weight and above.

 

First off I'm not a "kid" and when Duran would've fought McCallum he was coming off two very notable performances vs Moore, Hagler, so he was on a good run of form.

Secondly read what i said......I said I don't see the logic behind McCallum handily beating Duran like some people are suggesting here not that McCallum couldn't beat Duran there's a difference.

And yes I don't see McCallum who had not been mixing with world class fighters at that point as a massive favourite over the Duran who destroyed Moore and had a very competitive fight vs Hagler. As I keep saying Duran would've been a massive step up in class for McCallum at that point in his career and you're not taking that into account.

 

This isn't the blow out many on this subject is suggesting.
Mike McCallum no doubt was the better super welter, and should be in anyone's top 3-4 fighters in the history of the division.
But I Am old enough to have watched the majority of his fights as they happened. And McCallum like Marvin Hagler, can be made to over think, and not let his hands go.
While I do believe McCallum has the physicality and skills to beat any version of Duràn at the weight class.
I don't believe he has the mindset to dominate him. I believe just like Duràn did to Hagler, Duràn's ability to make the opponent lead by showing a false hole, or defensive opening, and counter quickly and sharply would confuse McCallum early, just like it did Hagler.
Plus McCallum wasn't overwhelmingly fast of hand and feet, or the height , reach and power of Thomas Hearns.
McCallum should win this.....
But I wouldn't count out Duràn out against him.
We counted him out in Montreal.
Counted him out and thought he'd be destroyed by Moore, Hagler and Barkley.
How'd that go for them?
And besides, McCallum's not as great as his mind thinks he is lol.
I don't believe he would've beaten Hearns , Leonard or Hagler his best vs their best.
And I believe Benitez would've been a stylistic nightmare for him.

 

Mike screwed himself and no not every trainer wanted to work with him - as a matter of fact it got to the point where most didn't want to bother with him not because he wasn't talented but because he caused so many headaches when trying to make fights for him.
Mike set him self back YEARS when he fought Mannion on HBO which at the time was prime time boxing.
He had a crude limited boxer in Mannion where he could have taken him out and chose to play it safe in a 15 round fight where one boxer couldn't and one boxer wouldn't. And it was an incredibly boring fight that put everyone to sleep.
Mike just couldn't get it through his head that he wasn't a draw- right or wrong- and would foolishly price himself WAY OUT of bouts.
What Mike should have done was accept the pay cut if he was so sure of himself win a bout against a big name and then Mike would have been in the limelight.
And for the record I saw Mike get badly rocked by an unknown boxer on his way up so this whole notion that Duran couldn't hurt him is just foolish.

 

I definitely don't see an '84 fight between the two being some one-sided mismatch.

Several things can be true at once.... Hands of Coke Duran was past his prime and above his best weight...Duran had become inconsistent by then.... he was not on the same level as McCallum at 154/160 when the totality of their time there is looked at....Duran was still capable of being a very good fighter at this time, depending on his condition and the style in front of him, and at the point this fight would have taken place (83-84) he was having one of his resurgences...McCallum was not as experienced as a pro, nor arguably as talented (he wasn't, imo) as the Hagler that Duran fought competitively.

If we look at some of the relevant fights at the time (83/84)

Duran is very impressive against a faded Cuevas and Moore. The latter a great win at the time given the stage of his career he seemed to be at, but it's not aged well for me. I do rate Moore as a highly promising fighter at the time...he needed to improve defensively, but was also already really an impressive, fast handed, accurate and varied offensive fighter with a heavy dig...however the stuff that came out about Moore's mafia handler's cashing him in after the dental surgery just before the fight shows he really had no business in there that night. Disgraceful management that leaves a bad taste around the entire thing.

The Hagler fight is another very impressive performance, though I don't think it was nearly as close as the judges made out (competitive 10-5 sort of fight,imo). Still, Duran showed impressive skills, accuracy, durability and defence against combinations, though his reflexes now struggle at times with quick straight single punches.

Gets crushed by Hearns trademark early onslaught. Couldn't cope with the range and blistering speed of Tommy's single punches and one-two's.

McCallum wins the title against granite tough, but technically and physically limited Sean Mannion. A one-sided, but dull fight where he comfortably gets the job done, but doesn't really impress.

Then fights another very tough compact pressure fighter in Luigi Minchillo, who unlike Mannion looks like more of a Welter fighting up. I like this one...it's also one-sided on a round by round scoring as well, but Minchillo is always in there making him work hard and landing some good shots, even if he mostly loses the exchanges; it's a gruelling fight and a good offensive showcase for McCallum, though also a good indicator of how his KO percentage is misleading. Corner stoppage after round 13, though Minchillo did not ever really look in trouble, just demoralised by now, with no chance of winning and probably having taken enough punishment for the corner's liking.

I guess we can bring Duran's own fight with Luigi in as well, though that was slightly earlier, being one of the post no-mas fights Duran took before challenging Benitez. It's a good look at an in-shape, determined 154 Duran against a very tough opponent over ten. He also wins almost every round in a fast-paced in-fight where Minchillo is always struggling to land a solid punch, but manages to stay competitive... other than when he occasionally tries to box on the back-foot and gets walked down and tagged with ease. Interestingly, Duran's punches seem to have at least as much effect as McCallum's did through ten, but he's clearly not quite as active or as strong at the weight when you compare the two, despite also never struggling physically. You can also see the advantage of McCallum's height and reach giving him a comfort zone to pick away on the outside, where Duran has to get into punching range to land.

Ultimately, I think McCallum's great durability, height and reach advantage, better work rate, excellent punch variety and offensive accuracy would be very tough for Duran over 15. He'll just outwork him and not get drawn into headhunting too much; I don't see either hurting the other much. It won't be as wide on the cards as the Benitez fight, though, and likely more competitive than the Hagler bout. McCallum just doesn't have the elusiveness to replicate what Benitez did, and was not the fencer he started becoming later yet. He liked to impose upon and exchange with smaller fighters, especially if he feels they can't hurt him much. I don't see that going very well early, with Duran's slip and counter prowess and Mike's lack of all-time speed/reflexes needed to overwhelm him. We'll see a lot of tough to score rounds where Mike clearly lands more punches (mainly body shots and jabs), but Duran lands the bigger, cleaner headshots...I wouldn't be surprised if it actually turns out similar to the Hagler fight, where Duran actually often gets outworked and outlanded up close, while having surprising success at mid/long range with his sneaky leads and counters.

With the stages both were at in their careers, there would have been a good chance oof the timing being right for Duran to use his superior slickness with enough athleticism left to make for a tough initial fight circa 84, but if they were to fight two or three times, he'd lose clearer in the follow-ups as McCallum gains that extra edge of experience and familiarity to combine with youth/physicality.

 

Very good point about the tedium of the Mannion fight really damaging his marketability. I don't really think it was a case of "could have taken him out" there, so much as Mannion turned out to be tough as ****, albeit McCallum did indeed fight a one-paced bout and didn't really seem motivated to try and put on a skills showcase either.

Mannion went on to show an excellent chin in some of the later beatings he took at 160-175.

 

Correct, McCallum at one point was considered a "head case" in the industry particularly among the gyms and trainers.

 

In another 10-20 years people will be picking McCallum over the likes of Hagler. They simply won't know any better. He was underappreciated for a while but that's long been caught up. I've seldom seen a reputation grow so much over the decades. Some people even believe Hagler ducked him which is astonishing.

 

Well Moore wasn’t that good and Duran wasn’t his best… and McCallum would IMO probably beat the best Duran? It’d be a close, close fight and I don’t think it’d be a mistake to bet on Roberto but for me McCallum seemed a bit more confident about imposing himself unlike Hagler, he’d make his size work.

 

Well in fairness McCallum didn’t lack for talent he was absolutely on the level of guys like Hagler, Hearns, Duran and Leonard I don’t think anyone but I believe Duran “ducked” him (more like made a WAY better business call) but it isn’t an “incorrect” choice to say McCallum can beat one of the above mentioned guys not at all.