Duran (Buchanan) easily beats mayweather

I have just bought quite a few Duran fights on DVD (67 bouts). I didn't know where to start my review but thanks to this little piece of inspiration^^, the Edwin Viruet bouts seem a good point at which to begin. (Alas, the Adolfo Viruet match is not included.)

 

A good argument could be made for that.

As is the case for a lot of these things, the truth is probably somewhere in between and/or across the two.

In any event, I think it's safe to say that Duran's optimum weight was certainly not above 147.

 

Your criteria is your own. You're entitled to it.
Ratings will vary from person-to-person, due to their criteria. Yours is fundamentally flawed, in my opinion, and has been pulled apart rather comprehensively.

Moreover, this thread is much more to do with a specific head-to-head than it is about Duran's historical rating. And, to my mind, Duran's historical rating need not underpin a discussion about whether or not he could beat Mayweather.

 

I'll admit I haven't seen much of Duran at LW but from a mental standpoint I could see Floyd badly frustrating him, Duran was a bully.

 

Finally someone who makes sense

 

https://www.boxinginsider.com/columns/experts-contemplate-duran-vs-mayweather-at-lightweight/

 

I don't think it has been pulled apart at all. If anything no side has come out on top, since it is what it is. But in my mind, no one has really proven he was top 10 ATG, no on his lightweight reign. Lightweight reign, leonard win and long career. top 10 ATG? Still the lack of wins over ATG fighters. Yet he fought many. I think he was a better more courageous fighter than Floyd, but head to head I see Floyd winning and frustrating him and Roberto saying afterward that he was not in shape for the fight. Same as the other fights he lost.

 

Duran stomps him I think. I'm obviously talking about the version of Duran that comes trained, rested and motivated. I think Floyd might beat the after-party hung-over version of Duran.

 

It's not a matter of proof; there is no proof; only qualitative assessment of the facts and hopefully well-formed opinions. However, this requires a reasonable interpretation of the facts and your entire argument rests on Duran not having defeated other greats, which is patent nonsense.

When your starting-point is to establish the blanket suppression of Duran's notable wins, both great and good, then it immediately diminishes the credibility of your argument. A case in point being a reference you made in the more appropriate thread ("Seriously now.. People overrating Roberto duran"), in which you referred to Duran's Lightweight opposition as an "average bunch of guys".

You can place him anywhere you want to but at least make a sensible case for it. And, with that, there is little more to be said about your view on Duran's ATG status.


Re a speculative head-to-head between Duran and Mayweather, I don't think there's anyone who can have a reasonable doubt that Mayweather never faced any opponent in Duran's class. A Buchanan-style Duran would have taken Mayweather to places he'd never been before; not by Castillo; not by De la Hoya; not by Cotto nor Maidana. A significant class above all those guys was Duran.

I doubt Mayweather's economic, safety-first style could keep Duran off of him. The pace and the pressure Duran was able to apply and maintain would mean Mayweather getting outworked and taking punishment to the body, I would wager.

No - Mayweather would need to dig deeper than that and, alas, we never saw him have to really search out that something extra. Against Duran, he'd have no choice but to find it.

 

This really descibes the older Floyd, not so much the version of him that could make 135 lbs with a same day weigh-in.

Perhaps. But let's not to forget that an old Floyd dealt with an almost 100 punch per rounds Maidana. Yes, Maidana was nowhere near Duran in terms of skill, but he had substantial advantages in size and youth against Floyd.

Don't really agree here. Maidana gave him a torrid time early on, but he managed to turn that. Mosley had him out on his feet twice in one round, but he came back and started to walk Mosley down the very next round. He fought through injury, often a broken hand, several times.

He didn't have a Manilla moment, but not many has. Duran didn't either, even though the turn around against Barkley was very impressive.

Only one of these guys quit in the face of adveristy and it wasn't Floyd. So I'd turn the tables here. If anyone's mental fortitude is in question it's Duran's.

 

well said .. you're right on the money, imo

 

I don't think it does. Floyd was always economical. Yes, there was a shift in his output, as he went up in divisions, but not by a huge amount (roughly 20%, which from a small amount to begin with, isn't much in real terms). Across both his two 12-round bouts with Castillo, Floyd threw an average of less than 430 punches per bout; more in the first bout than in the second. His punch output tended to spike against the lesser offensive threats, e.g. against Augustus.

The difference is the skill and effectiveness of Duran and, it is vast. Maidana was a slugger; a hit-and-hoper and even managed to convince a few people he deserved the win. Duran is an intelligent swarmer; better shot selection, much faster and more accurate. Size clearly isn't the issue of importance here.

I think you've misunderstood me. I wasn't questioning Floyd's mental fortitude; whether or not he could cope psychologically, take a dig or fight through injury. Lots of fighters have that ability in what are likely far more competitive contests.

I don't see Duran of the Buchanan fight being remotely comparable to either Welterweight Maidana or Old Man Mosley. And, do you really think the circumstances of the 'No Mas' fight are so easily replicated?

How does Floyd tactically and physically deal with an opponent, who was far more of a versatile offensive threat, over the course, than anyone he'd ever faced before; with the potential to adjust, as effectively as Floyd was used to doing himself? That brings a slightly newer meaning to being forced out of one's comfort zone to Floyd, in my book.

So yes - I think he would need to dig deeper than ever before.

 

At 130, where he probably was at least 135 lbs in the ring, he definitely had a higher output than later. I can check out his output against Corrales, but I'm pretty sure it was significantly higher than 35-40 punches a round.

Size is of a very big importance, especially when you're crowding a fighter. It wasn't a difference in skill that made Frazier much more succesful in getting to Foster than Tiger was.

Skill is of course also very important, but crowding and mauling someone who's 15-20 lbs smaller than you is a whoooooooooolly different affair to crowding someone who's 15-20 lbs larger. Imagine Maidana trying to pressure and maul Ward...

But, yes, Duran would definitely bring things to the table that Maidana didn't.

Castillo is in that case nearer to Duran. He wasn't as skilled either, of course, but had a big size advantage in the ring.

And it should be said that DeJesus and Viruet wasn't nearly as good as Floyd either, but they managed to frustrate him. No one Duran faced at LW as near Flyd at his best. So that goes both ways.

Could be. But he didn't ever quit under pressure, but Duran did quit when he was frustrated by an elusive boxer. So there would be the natural place to look for weaknesses.

 

He threw not much over 40/rd in the Corrales bout and this was at Super Featherweight, when Corrales had already talked about his difficulties making 130 and looked awful that night. As I mentioned in my previous post, Mayweather's output tended to rise, when facing competition, who were not as much of an offensive threat.

Corrales was seen as one, on paper, but he threw little more than 20 punches per round and failed to use any of the obvious physical advantages he had. To my mind, he had left most of himself in the gym and brought only his shell to the fight.

Skill is the most important factor and it seems you've gone from initially mentioning Maidana's weight to supplement your point in support for Floyd’s ability to cope under pressure, to then almost positing a doubt that Duran would have had the size to apply the same. It's a fairly moot point, either way.

Firstly, Maidana was really just throwing lots of wild, half-blind, windmilling shots in Mayweather's general direction. Rare was it he threw a quality punch with any weight behind it; many of them being swings of the arm and of no real consequence.

Secondly, 'swarming' is not necessarily 'mauling' and, as such, does not require a weight advantage to be a successful style against an out-boxer. Frazier was giving 10lbs to Ali in their first encounter; Basilio was giving close to 20lbs to Robinson and Tyson regularly gave weight away to his opponents. All successful swarmers and I'd say Duran was more skillful than all of those mentioned, having more tools at his disposal. Moreover, I certainly didn't really envisage a continual mauling being the primary approach that Duran would employ.

Lastly, I think at Lightweight they'd be fairly evenly sized and I'd suggest that the Mayweather/Maidana bout is not really a useful benchmark, for not just that reason but the others outlined above.

My recollection of that fight is that Castillo was able to work his way in with some intelligence but he was, at times, tentative and, at others, tended to smother his own work, as well as Floyd's. Despite this, a significant number of people feel Castillo won the fight - and not just fans.

I'd also say Floyd, at Lightweight, never faced anyone as good as De Jesus, Buchanan or even Lampkin. But Duran did face, albeit at Welterweight, an elite Boxer, who I would deem as superior to Floyd.

Floyd isn't that elusive and most fights don't result in a 'TKO, due to Frustration'. Relying on achieving this result, in a contest with Duran, would make it a fools errand, to start with.

 

Floyd is overrated as a mover. People act like he's Pep in there and winning rounds without throwing a punch. He wasn't hard to track down, he was just hard to hit with a lot of power.