Duran (Buchanan) easily beats mayweather

so was Benitez. And Wilfred could avoid Hearns punches.

 

I think it had very much had to do with what Floyd did to him.

Perhaps I'll check the punch stats for that fight, because I believe he was, busier, but it is a bit of a moot point anyhow. Floyd threw the amount of punches he needed to win. Ir was not like he was too tired to throw more. THE MAN WAS NEVER WINDED. If he needed to up his output, there was always plenty more in the tank.

Duran did plenty of mauling. Especially in his greatest win.

I do too (just, but a very close fight, and I believe Floyd was carrying an injury). Just like I feel Viruet might have edged Duran. And Floyd comfortably won the rematch, just as Duran did.

I think Castillo was ranked in the top 10 p4p when Floyd faced him. He probably was as good as any LW Duran fought.

Leonard was better than anyone Floyd faced at any weight, but Duran also lost one of their two prime match-ups. His win was close, his loss wasn't.

"Floyd isn't that elusive"? Come on. Now you're out there.

No one ever got hit less than Floyd. He was super elusive. Sure, part of that was down to his cautionary tactics (especially in older age), but however you want to splice it he was very, very hard to hit. And he was still offensive enough to win all his fights.

Duran could be frustrated by Floyd without quitting. It could still take him out of his best game. I'm not saying this would happen, but going by their histories it's more likely to happen than Floyd melting mentally from Duran's pressure.

 

I would have zero confidence rating Castillo as being better than Ken or Dejesus. I simply can't get behind that line of thinking. Castillo was good, but I wouldn't say better than those 2.

How is Floyd going to frustrate Duran though? SRL frustrated him by LITERALLY running around the ring and throwing bolo punches and windmill punches. I've never seen a single fight from Floyd where he moved like SRL did that night. Almost refusing to engage for big portions of the fight. Floyd doesn't move this way, in fact, it's the exact opposite. When pressured Floyd loves going to the ropes to use his patented lean back and shoulder roll to minimize his opponents rush and to look for counters. You literally never saw SRL against the ropes in SRL vs. Duran 2, he was on his bike almost the entire time. So I fail to see any parallels there that lead me to believe May has any hope of making Duran quit. What I can't see is, how Floyd's going to the ropes routine is going to be a good thing against the best version of Duran. That is almost the worst place he could be.

 

Sure - We'll just never know whether or not he could have done it against an elite like Duran.

I'm quite certain I haven't stated otherwise.

I'm yet to watch Roberto Duran/Edwin Viruet I. Until then I'll not make a comparison.

Perhaps a topic for another time. For now, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

My point was that Leonard was better than Floyd. Duran losing the Leonard rematch doesn't take away from the achievement of their first encounter, which saw what a fully-fired Duran could do. Nothing comparable to that achievement exists for Floyd.

Floyd had exceptionally good defense but, to my mind, there's a difference between being defensive and being "elusive". Castillo, OdlH, Hatton, Cotto, to mention a handful, were all able to get to Floyd, while landing on him cleanly was another matter.

I've never suggested that Duran could force a mental meltdown of Floyd.

And, no matter Duran's tendency to get frustrated, there's little telling how much, if anything, it took out of his game or, indeed, whether or not it played a significant part of his best game. It didn't seem to bother him in 102 of his 119 fights, over 33 years.

 

And the rematch showed what Leonard could while on his A-game.

I'd have Leonard as greater than Floyd, not sure about better. Perhaps.

No on that level was ever hit less. No one. English isn't my mother tongue, but that's elusive for me.

But he did lose one fight due to mental issues. Floyd none. Hence, my point that if someone's going to affected mentally, history suggests that it would be Duran. You expressed doubts that Floyd could dig deep enough, but the times he had to he did. But Duran didn't cope with frustration every time. That was my point.

 

Agreed .. and not only that. Floyd will have to work a helluva a lot harder in this one. He doesn't get his usual 2 or 3 rounds to take his "look" first.. Duran is going to be all over him and fast. And Floyd didn't have the power to deter this

 

Something else we'll have to agree to disagree on - and a side of the argument, for which Mayweather backers will have to rely on the eye test and favorable speculation. Because, without Mayweather having competed at anything near to the level that SRL did, the evidence for who was better weighs heavily in Leonard's favor.

Tomayto; Tomahto.

You introduced this "mental' aspect into the discussion after misinterpreting an earlier point I made, with me immediately explaining your misunderstanding to you. Yet, it keeps coming up.

I obviously don't perceive it as the key factor you do. As I made very clear, earlier, I think the bout would be much more about the physical demands imposed upon Mayweather, from a highly skilled opponent, who was used to expertly applying effective pressure over many rounds.

'No Mas' is not a factor here.

 

I agree. To be honest I think Duran wins comfortably and convincingly. Stylistically he's all wrong for Mayweather. That kind of pressure and workrate, FMJ just won't win enough rounds. Round by round will go by and Duran will just keep outworking FMJ.

 

Corrales or Castillo were not better than DeJesus or Ken Buchanan. Maybe Castillo was equal to Ken, but not to DeJesus.

 

I think that's a reasonable statement. Not sure about "anywhere near" since Floyd has beaten some very good fighters, but Leonard did beat the better fighters and it's reasonable that he deserves the benefit of doubt as the better fighter as a result.

The question is then, would Floyd fare more like Leonard did in Montreal or like he did in New Orleans?

The thing for me is, I buy the excuses for both Leonard and Duran in these fights. I do believe that Leonard's head wasn't right in Montreal and he fought the wrong fight, and I also believe that Duran wasn't optimally prepared and motivated for New Orleans.

Not sure what kind of conslusions I'd draw for a Duran-Floyd match-up from the above, though.

You expressed doubts about Floyd's ability to dig deep enough. I saw no reason for such doubts and said that the doubts in that case rather should be on Duran's ability to keep his frustration in check.

But we can leave that bit to the side, since I agree that neither fighter is likely to come up short mentally.

 

And this is where we quite probably disagree at the fundamental level. I've never bought into the idea that Leonard fought the wrong fight in Montreal, while I do consider Duran to have been somewhat in lesser shape than he needed to be for the rematch.

As far as a Floyd match-up is concerned, I don't think FMJ can replicate the Leonard of either Montreal or New Orleans. It's a different fight altogether. I just view Montreal as a crystal clear example of what Duran was capable of doing. And, frankly, I see the New Orleans debacle as a freak moment in history.

It would take a lot for me to question Mayweather's mental fortitude. If nothing else, he appears to me to have consistently demonstrated a focused composure.

Could he physically and tactically keep up with Duran and hold together his almost formulaic style? That's the question.

 

Perhaps the most worn out debate on this forum, so let's just agree to disagree.

And could Duran prevent him from dictacting the pace, which so preciously few could? Interesting to see for sure.

 

Indeed. Thanks for the exchange. It was a good chat.