Duran V Hearns 1980

I've got it somewhere here, Jear is spot on with Tommy's gameplan. Jabbing to the chest and feinting the jab too the chest was a big plan going in.

 

Why did'nt Lewis drop the right hand down the pike as Hearns did vs Duran???

Its not as simple at to say Hearns sucess came because of a flaw in Duran's defense with parring jabs downward.....

.....sure Duran had flaws, the least of which was his parrying a jab downward. More than that, his ability to manuever the ring, and his reflexes to defend shots and get them off.....not to even mention that the media had seen that he was having poor workouts in the couple of weeks prior to Hearns.

To put it in simple terms, the Duran that faced Hearns was still a capable fighter, but a fighter who was way past the fighter who was capable of dealing with the elites.


Compare the Duran that faced and gave Hagler a close fight just a fight prior to Hearns.....compare that Duran to the Duran that faced Leonard?

Duran is fighting in slow motion against Hagler if you then look and compare that to how he was fighting with Leonard.

Everyting is uptempo'd for the Leonard fight if you compare it to the Hagler fight, thats how much Duran had slipped.

It should'nt be a suprise to anybody that a fighter with the special unatural abilities of Hearns is able to put that version of Duran, face first to the canvas.

Hearns was a beatable, but a very special fighter, and you sure better be in the prime of you abilities and on your A game to beat a prime version of him.
Duran was sure nowhere near that at any time after the Leonard No Mas fight!


I laugh at those with the thought process that say that Duran beating Barkley 5 years after Hearns is an indicator that Duran had alot left 5 years earlier vs Hearns.
One thing is to beat a much less faceted fighter like Barkley....Duran's sheer skill did that, helped by the fact that Barkley did'nt offer any of the multifaceted unatural abilities that Hearns created......and another thing is for that same aging Duran who has lost alot of his youthful abilities, speed, quickness, stamina, even tenacity, and expect that fighter to compete with prime Tommy Hearns.

I cant say it any other way but to say that its stupid to think that the Duran that faced Hearns is anywhere in the league of the Duran that beat Leonard in Montreal.
To me a statement of Hearns always blitzes Duran in the same way no matter the point in time that they face eachother is the equivalent....(just an example) of Lennox Lewis starching the version of Muhamad Ali that was beaten by Larry Holmes, and claiming that Lewis does that to Ali at any point in his career.......
Exactly, that statement is STUPID!!!!

......and you know what, Lennox Lewis could very well have starched the version that was beaten by Holmes, and done it much the same way Hearns did vs Duran!

Its just boggles me that even the simplist of boxing fans cant understand this.

 

Duran would chop him down. Whatever Ray can do, Duran could do better.

 

It is a flaw in his technique that Hearns has the tools to take advantage of always. Not the same Duran? Maybe not he never got a chance to show us. Maybe it was the same Duran and, as I feel, Tommy was just wrong for Duran. Leonard didnt hold the same physical advantages Tommy did so Duran was always going to have more success getting shots off against Ray

The Holmes Ali wasnt beaten because of technical errors he was beaten because he was old. And Lewis did drop the right hand on Tua, Tua decided he may well have ended up like Duran and decided to stay away.

Your comparison is illogical, maybe thats why us "simplistic boxing fans" dont see it your way.

You arent going to change everyones view so dont get frustrated just put your analysis across and let them decide for themselves.

 

Sure Ali was old, but he most likely could still beat most of the Heavyweight contenders at the time, just not a prime Larry Holmes!

I did'nt see Duran being destroyed by Hearns because he was parrying Hearns jab downward......
.....what I see is Duran not having the quickness or the speed to get inside of Hearns range.
Everytime Duran attempted to punch, Hearns quickly took a step back and was out of the slow footed Duran range.

I dont even think Duran got one good shot off at Hearns, and it was because he was constantly lunging at Hearns.....he did'nt have the quickness or speed of foot to manuever inside of Hearns range.

Imo it has little if anything to do with a flaw caused by Duran parrying Hearns jab down.

A prime Duran most likely parries that jab off expecting the right hand of Hearns to come and ducking under it.
That become quite difficult to do when you dont have nearly the reflexes or quickness to time and go with the flow of what Hearns is trying to do.

Tua decided he may have ended up like Duran?
As did Lennox, as he never even attempted to get as candid as Hearns did vs Duran!
I dont think Hearns ever had the mindset to make a silent pact with a fighter to waltz through a fight and protect themselves from the others power!:rofl :rofl :rofl

 

Ali was struggling to beat top contenders and novices when he retired in 78, it is ignorant to suggest he could still beat top contenders in 80. I would be interested to hear these names.


Duran ducks under the right of Hearns?? That is exactly what he was trying to do when Tommy switched out the light. By jabbing lower Hearns asked him to parry lower opening up his chin longer. It wasnt reflexes that cost him, Tommy was too fast and hit too hard simple. His lack of footspeed is because of Hearns height and reach. Its not rocket science to understand if someone has long arms they can fight from further away therefore the shorter man has to move more and will look slower than he would against a shorter oponent.

Once Tua backed off Lewis had no need to take chances did he.

 

Ali couldn't have beaten my nan that night. Even Evangelista would have beaten that version of Ali (Alfredo received a controversial duke over my dear nanna later that year).

 

I agree, Ali had slipped significantly even when he retired having avenged his loss to Leon Spinks in 1978......
My point is that even that version of Ali was still capable of beating less faceted contenders the equivalent in skill level to Davey Moore and Iran Barkley, but he was'nt because he had slipped so much going to beat a truly elite skilled fighter in his division (like Larry Holmes) in Duran's case his Larry Holmes was Tommy Hearns.
......only in Duran's case, unlike Holmes, Hearns had the ability to end a fight with a single shot.

Duran and Ali may have not slipped equally in comparing them to their fights with Hearns and Holmes, but the point is that both had slipped significantly from what they once were.


Lewis hardcores can believe what they want, but his fight with Tua was'nt a fight or a boxing lesson, it was an outright mutually agreed upon waltz!:deal :yep

 

To the contrary Hearns himself was about the only person around picking him via KO, let alone in the second round. The result and finish was nominated the most shocking of the decade by many major publications. Such a feat was never seen before nor since with Duran

Who is saying that tho? What people are saying is that they believe the stylistic matchup is such that it doesn't matter what Duran turns up.

PULEASE! What sort of comparison is that? Really? Was Ali coming off a great effort vs the best P4P fighter in boxing? Had Ali recently won a world title via total dominace of a young champion? Did Ali win a credible world title 5 years after fighting Holmes? Had Duran not fought for a full two years like Ali?

If the Hearns - Duran statement is stupid, what are we to call this comparison? I don't think the word is yet invented. You can do far better than that lot dude.

 

MDWC's nan TKO7 Ali, because she doesn't show mercy unlike The Mallard. .

 

Coming off a great effort vs Hagler?

Is'nt it you who has always asserted that that Hagler-Duran fight was'nt even close?
.....or am I confusing you with somebody else?

Speed and quickness.....Hagler was'nt in that league in that dept with fighters who had dominated Duran during that time frame.
Benitez with speed and quickness absolutely dominated Duran from start to finish. That was a good indicator right there that Duran was'nt going to be able to deal with Hearns speed and quickness.

Aging fading fighters rarely if ever are able to cope with speed and quickness.

BTW, it might have gotten lost in the thread, but my argument is that a quick devestating KO by Hearns is not proof that he gets it done vs a prime version of Duran at 147 lbs......I think alot of members in this forum over the years are of the opinion that Hearns dealing with Duran is the very proof that he could do it to any version of Duran.
Thats what my disagreement is with!


Maybe I did'nt make myself clear with my parrallel with Ali.
I'll make it clearer.

The Ali who lost to Leon Spinks was riding a 14 fight winning streak and had'nt lost in 5 years.....

Since you're very high on Lennox Lewis, dont you think that a prime Lennox Lewis was capable of destroying the version of Ali that lost to Leon Spinks in 1978?

Imo Lewis, or any big sized superheavy with bonafide punching power like the Klitchko bros. and Riddick Bowe, KO's the version of Ali that was fighting around the time frame of 75-78 without much of a problem.

Whats your opinion on that JT?

 

Well, to begin with Lewis did throw the right hand down the pike at Tua, who took them and then having tasted Lewis's power became very cautious. Lewis, unlike Hearns, was not given to be drawn into brawls and so took the safety-first route of outpointing Tua from distance. Moreover, Tua was a dangerous puncher at heavyweight whereas Duran at 154, whilst a respectable puncher, could not be classed as dangerous.

I think you're a good poster Divac but your analogy regarding Ali vs Holmes/Lewis doesn't make much sense within this argument. One of the reasons why Hearns will always beat Duran IMO is due to styles and physicality. Neither of these factors have the same relevance regarding any potential match-up between Ali and Lewis.

 

It's obvious that you have conducted some freshly diligent research here.

While these matches are also familiar to me, I additionally took a look at Duran/Fernandez and Duran/Brooks, where Roberto brought down each for the ten count with bodyblows, then contrasted that with SRL's late downstairs attack in the first meeting with Hearns. As tough as Brooks could be, and as fleet footed and elusive as Fernandez was, Duran negated the question of their chins by the manner in which he took them out.

Tommy did not have the body at WW which he later grew into as his poundage increased. Duran took Brooks out at Monroe's highest recorded competitive weight (while weighing 143 himself, about what he should have weighed for a WW battle with Tommy). Vilomar, although a lightweight, had a shorter stockier build than those typical of that division, and was extremely well conditioned.

As Arcel said to Duran late in the Fernandez bout: "We know how hard his chin is. Now let's find out about his stomach." El Cholo might not even have to concern himself with Tommy's chin, considering what SRL was able to do to his lanky body. Duran was badly out of shape at 149-1/2 when he took on 6'0" Zeferino "Speedy" Gonzalez during the SRL/Hawk Price card in September 1979. While he wasn't in condition to knock Zeferino out, he did pitch a near shutout rather easily. What's important to emphasize here though, is that by 1980, Duran had ten recent rounds of experience in competition against an opponent of Tommy's stature. In peak condition, he would have had the knowledge accrued from those ten rounds of boxing to know in his own mind how to go about chopping Hearns down to size.

 

Maybe, you did mistake me for a hater of Chavez.

In a nutshell

Duran performed better than expected vs Hagler whilst Hagler performed much more poorly than expected. Hagler IMO still won this fight clearly.

Fair call here, fair call, with one proviso. Hearns still wasn't expected to decimate Duran, but he was favoured to outbox him by most.

Hard to argue on the whole here.

Yes but i think you have underestimated the quality of poster on this thread. These guys aren't simply basing their whole assumption on this fight. They have looked at other intangibles and still think Hearns is stylistic doom for Duran, and i agree. Zivic's similar thoughts give me substancial confidence here. He's been around the traps has that one.

You might be right, i might be right, who knows. Anything is certainly possible and i respect your stance, if not your comparison.Bleh...

Mate, the comparison stinks lol. I can't describe it any other way. I'd just say oops, i take that one back.

Do you think that version of Ali was akin to the medicated half dead zombie who walked into the ring vs Holmes?

Highly possible. It's a pity you didn't claim anything like this when you made your comparison tho, you chose the sickly version of Ali who fought Holmes. A far cry from where you are now heading to.

Off topic but what lightweights do you think would have troubled Duran? What style would you see as one that could potentially trouble him? I think a super speedy boxer could be difficult, but whether or not there has been one born with enough class to beat Duran is another story. I know you despise him, but i think Whitaker would have been one of his better challenges.

 

I may have taken it a bit far by parralelling Duran's situation with that of Ali and mentioning Holmes.......
......the point I was trying to make however is that even that Ali could have at least been competitive with some good fighters not the elite quality of Holmes.

To be truthful, and I've always been honest about my boxing knowleadge starting from the early eighties.....so I'm no expert at just how much Ali had left during those late 70's matches he had.
My guess is that up to the Spinks fight, he had enough left to beat most but the genuine A level fighter.
Thats where my parralell draws with Duran's.
Duran during his mid to late 30's had enough left to on a given night beat most good fighters, just not those who were genuine A level.

At above Welter, Duran won on skill and guile alone. He did'nt have the speed, quickness, or even power to match most of the fighters he was fighting......and when you take on an elite like Hearns, Leonard, and Hagler, those disadvantages are going to stick out like a sore thumb.

....btw, I had the Hagler-Duran fight very close, but I've conceded more than once on this forum that Hagler fought an overly cautious fight and could have very well dominated Duran had he not given him so much respect.
.....in any regard, Hagler's forte which wasnt speed and quickness to the level that Hearns and Leonard used it.......except for stamina is'nt one that would overwhelm an aging fighter like Duran who could still fight well, just not with the elite for years to come.
Like I said before, speed and quickness is what usually will overwhelm an aging fighter.

If they're not basing their assumption on just this here fight, what are they basing it on????
Remember, we are talking a prime Duran vs Hearns at 147 lbs, not 154 lbs!

Did someone I dont know about who was tall, fast and quick just tee off on Duran at will with him not even been able to get a shot off????

Did Duran throughout his career have trouble getting inside a tall fighters reach???????What are these posters you talk about basing it on?

I base my opinion that past Montreal, Duran could still compete with most but the highly quick and speedy fighters, besides Hearns....Leonard and Benitez are the prime examples......and Leonard and Benitez dominated Duran in their own style, Hearns just happens to have a devestating punch to go along with his quickness and speed......
.....but I have no doubt, that Duran would more than compete with each of them fully prepared and in his prime!


What I see are posters just stating that Hearns would have been a stylistic nightmare at any point in Duran's career and leave it at that.
Where are the examples of fights against tall rangy fighters that would lead us to believe Hearns would do the same against a prime Duran.
Give me some fight examples Duran has had that would leave me to believe Duran gets blown away in his prime vs Tommy.

Give them to me JT???