Duran's Lightweight Status Is Overblown

I've definitely heard that Lampkin was robbed in one of those DeJesus fights, and that's why he was still ranked.

 

I agree, Duran's rating is a little overblown at 135. He is touted as a defacto #1 and while a few on this forum have disputed that enough for Benny Leonard to take the #1 for some, its still very prevelant. I won't comment on Gans too much as his greatness is actually something I've never really explored - in the sense that outside of a few well known names like Erne, Holly and Elbows, I don't know much about his era.

However, as mentioned Duran's LW resume is quite 'weak' compared to other ATGs there. Duran beat 3 top 50 LWs when I did my list - as in, he beat 3 guys who made my top 50 (Buchanan, DeJesus & Ishimatsu) - and I'd be happy saying that Buchanan or DeJesus are right up there with guys like Laguna, Montgomery, Jack, or Brown. However, that's only 4 good wins and Ishimatsu is a clear step down from Buchanan and DeJesus at their best imo.

His real strengths at the weight class is his long string of defences and massive consistency. I don't recall how many fights were specifically at 135, but he was close to 70-1 when he moved up. That's an insane record.

However, just to crunch a few numbers.

Tony Canzoneri beat three Top 50 LWs (Lou Ambers, Billy Petrolle & Jack Kid Berg) with razor close losses to Ross, and about 20 other contenders.

Freddie Welsh beat six Top 50 LWs (Benny Leonard, Willie Ritchie, Lockport Jimmy Duffy, Johnny Dundee, Charlie White, & Joe Mandot) as well as multiple draws with McFarland and wins over Abe Attell and Jim Driscoll.

Ike Williams beat four Top 50 LWs (Bob Montgomery, Willie Joyce, Sammy Angott & Beau Jack) as well knocking off wins against Kid Gavilan.

You could easily rate any of these guys above Duran at 135 - and that's outside of the standard 3 you might get above Roberto - being Leonard, Gans and McFarland.


One thing I have always appreciated about Duran's reign through, is it showcased his abilities in different ways against different types of opponents.

Ken Buchanan: He shows his intensely fierce pressure and ridiculously fast and well schooled footwork in both taking away the Ken's utility with the jab, and closing the distance between them safely.

Jimmy Robertson: Gimme defence really, but Duran feints him to oblivion, forces him to fight upclose and destroyed him with pristine counter punching.

Hector Thompson: A beautiful matador-like performance where Duran used Hector's size and bullishness against him, landing vicious uppercuts all the way throughout.

Guts Ishimatsu: Id be lying if I said I remembered this one too well. I do remember thinking it was one of his finest performances, and his jab to enter the clinch/infight was on point.

Esteban De Jesus 2: Despite the early KD, Duran was an animal here with some of the best exchanges the LW division ever saw occuring in the early to mid rounds before Duran took over. If anything, this is good fight to compare with Duran & DeJesus' first fight to see how he fixed his weaknesses.

Masataka Takayama: Just shows why it's a terrible idea to stand with Duran

Ray Lampkin: Obviously there's the brutal KO - but more than that, Duran has to keep on dealing with a man in "purposeful retreat", and find his spots against a guy who isn't gonna stay. Quite a forgettable performance all-round, if not for the knockout.

Leoncio Ortiz: A real treat this one. Duran shows how he deals with southpaws, and works both a beautiful uppercut and some of the finest shifting footwork ever. Genuinely could be a performance on par with Palomino this - from memory.

Lou Bizzarro: From what I remember, this one was quite similar to the Lampkin fight in that it's an inarguable win, but an unimpressive performance.

Alvaro Rojas: Another good reminder why not to stand with Duran, he must've missed the Takayama fight.

Vilomar Fernandez: This is another fight with Duran at his best; in a similar vein to Buchanan, he just absolutely pulled Fernandez apart with vicious body shots and terrifyingly fast feet.

Edwin Viruet: I'm gonna leave this one coz I'm not actually sure if I've seen it.

Esteban De Jesus 3: This is vintage Duran. Skill-wise, he makes a big adjustment of leading DeJesus to him. To me though, this actually looks like Duran was quite flat, just too sophisticated for DeJesus to effectively recreate what he did in the first fight, and first rounds of the second.

 

Not as good as Williams, but a respectable resume.

 

Nice to see Welsh get a mention.. very underrated .. never shied away from anyone.. fought Benny Leonard, Willie Ritchie, Ad Wolgast, Young Erne, Jim Driscoll, Packey McFarland, Johnny Dundee, Battling Nelson, Rocky Kansas, Johnny Kilbane.. brilliant boxer. I have him in my top 5 British fighters ever.

 

Good points. Funny you bring up Shane Mosley because when he was on the go, people considered his lightweight resume as being thin.

 

It's very thin. But he is maybe the most impressive h2h specimen I've seen at lightweight.

 

How come you think he'd beat Duran? My general view of him, is that he does nothing I wouldn't expect better from, from SRL. For me, it's not a hard pick at all, despite how big and quick Mosley is.

 

i think it's debatable, Joe Brown was old though. If I give him props for that, I have to give Buchanan props for beating Ortiz and Laguna. I don't know if Ortiz beats Buchanan in his prime, I think that's a close fight
You knock some of Duran's wins from coming from other weights, but not elorde and Ramos. And the 1st fight was controversial from Ramos anyway. He allegedly didn't beat the count.

I don't think being from another weight at those small weight classes is really a big deal. Guys jump up and down those weights all the time.

Not saying Duran has to be goat 135, but he at least has a case.

 

Speed, power and granite chin. Got that right

 

I don't see Napoles as more skilled than Duran. He just fought in a style that people associate with "being skilled". Skills come in a lot of flavors. The OP makes a good case, not good enough for me to buy (I can tear apart almost any resume as can many in these parts). Still, enough to think about and reconsider other fighters.

 

To put it succinctly, this:

Of course there's no such thing as a lightweight SRL, but if there was (where he made the weight comfortably, so again, we're talking in the hypothetically shrunken-down fantasy realm here) he's another guy I give a very good chance of shattering the invincible lightweight Durán myth. If you have the chin, handspeed, mindset and capability to fire combos at him all night and with enough crunch on them for him to respect them, you stand a solid chance. Few have that exact recipe of distilled attributes quite like SRL & SSM.

 

I think Duran's p4p prowess and skillset have a halo effect on his LW tenure.

Benny Leonard is the no. 1 for me on résumé and Gans has a great shout too, and I'm not sure that Duran trumps Ike Williams H2H and I'm slowly but surely starting to really see Sweet Pete being a very difficult fight for him to navigate.

One thing not really talked about to the level of detail and back and forth I expect for such a legendary fighter, I'm not happy with him winning the title on a low blow. Buchanan wouldn't have won the fight but that's not how you lose your title.

 

If it's a low blow,that might needs to be considered a technical draw I suppose.

No DQ fro Duran because the ref might've added up to the low blow incident,but a rematch would've been nice to see how Buchanan would try to adapt and how Manos de Piedra crunches him.

 

I think you have a very valid point based on record of opposition .... I also have always thought that Duran's rep at 135 was as a destructive monster , a Charles Manson with muscles ... it really wasn't till DeJesus 3 and then moving up and razzing Palomino on his way to Montreal that we really began to see the exceptional skills far beyond stalking animal strength and speed ... My feeling is that there is a fair argument of his level of opposition as the very best at 135 but not his place as a fighter.