Early 80's discussion

Out of 20 defences probably only Zannon, Leroy Jones, Scott Frank and Rodrigues were about the only guys Larry fought I would not give less than a 50% chance of beating any of the WBA champions. Everyone else Larry fought was as just as good, perhaps no better but just a good.

Yes some of Larry guys were less than 20 fight guys but would you say Those with fewer fights stand no chance with the Tate that Weaver beat or the Weaver Dokes beat or the Coetzee that Page beat or the Page that Tubbs beat? Marvis, Williams, and Bey have a real shot at turning them over, maybe even Cobb

 

Surmising who might have beaten who doesn't erase the fact that Mandatory contenders went unchallenged. Titles ununified and the best not fighting the best. This logic you've applied is sort of like saying well Bowe didn't really need to fight Lewis because he instead beat Ferguson who beat Mercer who later in hindsight fought Lewis to a virtual standstill. Of course we can nitpick subtle differences in those comparisons but the general premise still holds true.

 

This argument has been done in various threads.

Inevitably, it boils down to Choke defending the indefensible regarding Holmes avoiding a few top guys. I agree with Magoo, John Thomas and some others on this one.

 

I am not sticking up for Larry any more than I would anyone else. Usually the politics and management is more to blame than the fighter.

The media always presents it as "this guy ducked that guy". No he didn't. every boxer has a price. It is way over played when any fight does not happen. Of course a guys manager can out price things in negotiations but usually most pros will fight. At a price.

Larry was very outspoken and all about the business. If he ducked one mandatory to pursue a unification is that so bad?

There is no way he could have fought Tate or Dokes. Weaver saw to it that he didn't have to fight Tate and Dokes was locked into a rematch and his own mandatory which he lost. This is not even an excuse.

Coetzee he signed to fight.

I think once Witherspoon had Larrys old belt that should have been reason to make a fight but Larry just made fun of him and it left a bad taste. If he just said I'll fight him after I'm done with Coetzee (and that fight never fell through) it would be okay because I think Thomas beat him whilst Larry was locked into that one. But that is Larry.

Until somebody can prove the whole Holmes-Coetzee fight a charade and Larry really only pretended to take that to screw with King and get out of Page or Witherspoon and Thomas fights we cannot really say he was ducking.

 

Yes Holmes signed to fight Coetzee and the fight fell through for reasons with no clear origin of blame. Great... But Gerrie Coetzee was just one man among several talented and qualified heavyweights in the 80's, and not even the best among them. He had already lost fights to Tate, Weaver, a controversial decision to Snipes and a draw with Thomas. And Holmes only entertained the idea of facing him because there was a lot of money involved and not to uphold a title. It really is a shame the WBO wasn't in existence in 1983. That would have been a good belt for Holmes.

 

I can't remember the details but I think Holmes agreed to Coetzee in 1984 because he was guaranteed some massive payday. At least $8 million, maybe $12 million. He'd received $10 million for Cooney, a record at the time.
The massive "guarantees" and other unrealistic financial planning was the reason the Holmes-Coetzee fight fell through.

 

so who and when should he have fought the best ones? That's if anything much makes one stand out from the best Guys Larry fought?

It is ok saying it like that but please let me know where and how fights with Dokes, Tate and Thomas could take place either side of all the mad mandatory obligations of alphabet soup.

Which if any were better than Berbick,Snipes, C00ney? Or Williams or Bey or Smith?

Remember, Thomas and Tubbs Larry signed to potentially meet when he joined the HBO series.

Again let me point out four of Larrys challengers were weaker than WBA level. I won't defend those fights at all, but it is difficult to prove those four tune ups of 20 title fights were at the expense of Larry facing the three extra guys that were as good as the other 14 he did meet.

 

He could have very easily signed to fight both Page and Thomas along with giving Witherspoon and Weaver rematches. That's just off the top of my head and this has been covered ad nauseam not just here but all over these boards for literally a decade. What you've been doing is surveying the scene in hindsight and from your perspective and drawing up possible conclusions for why he didnt' fight or rematch these men then presenting them as fact. The truth is, Holmes was mightily criticized both in his own time and after for facing some of the guys he did while avoiding others. In 1985 for example, Thomas, Tubbs and Witherspoon were all available and qualified challengers. So why did he fight Spinks and Williams instead ? There's just no getting around it. And if you're going to say that he "tried" to fight those guys, well then I'll ask you, was this before or after he publicly stated that he wasn't going to take on tough challenges anymore?

 

It was a mess. The sad thing is the early 1980's had good talent. Drugs, contracts and Don King blackballing Tim Witherspoon plagued the times.

Larry Holmes was mostly about the MONEY. But politics prevented a match with Dokes. Page was there for a short window of time, but Holmes opted to fight Conney '82, Witherspoon 83', Smith 84', Bey 85' ( who beat Page, eliminating all hopes for a match with Holmes ), and Spinks instead in his final years as champion.

Once Holmes " retired " Don King used the hype and contracts to have the " champions " fight, Mike Tyson.

The belts these days are minor decorations. The Champion of Ring Magazine or the #1 gun at Fightnews is the " real " champion.

 

Looking at the ring magazine's annual ratings, Greg Page was consistently ranked in the top 10 for no less than 6 consecutive years .. for 3 of those six years he was ranked either #4 or higher and for 2 years was even locked at #2. The WBC had him ranked #1 for about 10 months between May of 1983 to March of 1984. Funny how for six consecutive years you had a top 10 guy who even broke top 3 for a while that never got a title shot at Holmes ( even when Holmes faced revocation of his title ) while every dick, harry and tom seemingly did.. How about Pinklon Thomas? He was also ranked for 6 consecutive years, though only the first four were during Holmes' reign. By 1983 Thomas was ranked #4 and for both 1984 and 1985 he was #1. he was also ranked in 1986 and 1987 but that understandably doesn't apply to Larry. Tim Witherspoon lost a highly controversial decision to Holmes in the spring of 1983. For the next two and half years leading up to Holmes losing to Spinks, Tim continued to be a top 3-4 contender and even a brief belt holder. No rematch while David Bey, Carl Williams, Marvis Frazier and an unknown Smith got cracks at the crown. Mike Weaver gave Holmes fits in 1979. For the next two and a half years he was the rings #1 until losing to Dokes ( controversially ) in the fall of 1982.

...... And a guy like Scott Frank got a title fight because he drew with Renaldo Snipes??? .......

 

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Page only began to really suck around 1986. Prior to that point he had beaten some pretty damn good fighters and was only losing primarily to quality men with the exception of Bey whom I've even heard was a close decision. He beat Coetzee, snipes, tills, Monroe, Ward, Chaplin, broad.. He won an alpha title. Lost in hard fought decisions to Berbick, spoon and Tubbs. Again, by 1986 he started losing to everyone and their brother. Not the case prior to that point.

 

You should be getting paid for this Goo.