Early versions of advanced techniques.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by MagnaNasakki, Mar 19, 2013.


  1. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    This thread has turned into 'things you rarely see nowadays' ;)
     
  2. Bogotazo

    Bogotazo Amateur Full Member

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    Yup, the more I read, the more I noticed a gradual disappearance sometime after the 70's.
     
  3. MagnaNasakki

    MagnaNasakki Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    In the first complete round I saw Ketchel face Papke, he:

    Let his feet leave the ground after punch.

    Leaned into a jab over his front foot.

    Backed straight up.

    Shifted his weight completely to his back leg.

    Hands at his waist.

    Ducks straight down, looking at the floor.


    Just looks unnatural as hell. But he wasn't a superior boxer, he was a fighter, that much is really obvious. Seek, destroy. Get close, whale away, manhandle, break down, beat up, dispatch. Not a lot of craft in that plan, doesn't mean it cant be highly effective for the right fighter; George Foreman, while in possession of better fundamentals, had essentially the same method of winning.

    And yes, it's completely a sign of the times. Doesn't mean a fighter in front of me doing that same stuff is gonna make it out of the first round. 1900, 2013, no matter, the stuff is plain ugly, and a mistake is a mistake is a mistake. If no trainer in the world wouldn't admonish it in practice, I call it a mistake.

    Ketchel was clearly a brute and a tremendously powerful brawler. It is underrated how tough it is to be constantly closing distance, in harms way, looking to administer punishment. It takes bravery, and eyes. Refined? I threw up a bit in my mouth using the word so close to his name :hey.
     
  4. dpw417

    dpw417 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Well, was talking Ezzard at that time...Anyway like it ...(or not) Ugly Stan was pulling off the moves some great fighters used afterwards,.... way way way back in the day.

    Every point you made is valid and technically correct.

    Alot of great fighters do some those same things though...but upon looking at your list, for mere mortals it could get them in trouble...big trouble.

    Backing up straight gets you hit not once, but maybe two or three...but do you want to follow a puncher? nuff said.

    Hands down... perhaps some baiting going on? nuff said.

    Shifting weight completely on backfoot? Another 'refined' technician does this to hide away from southpaws. Gives them fits because they can't touch him when he does it... his name is Bernard Hopkins. Ketchel?...the only thing I could compare it to is when Marciano stood up to get leverage on a shot (right hand)...and start a punching rythym. Gil Clancy said of Marciano.. that the right might miss by a mile, but the left hook would nail you. I think Ketchel did it to start his shift...there is your method behind it.

    Leaning into a jab..stepping into it..old timers did it that way. But if you noticed he went to the body with it, not the head. It is a strong shot with plenty of body weight behind it. Could really have been countered with a double jab, right hand by a modern guy though.

    looking at the floor...gets you clobbered. nuff said.

    It is just plain ugly...but you said it yourself.. with the right fighter. It's highly effective.

    I'll buy that!

    Thanks for the take.
     
  5. MagnaNasakki

    MagnaNasakki Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The hands down, I can buy. Fighter's back in the day did it ALL the time. It was sort of par for the course.

    Backing straight up, you can follow a puncher. He has to plant his feet to generate a knockout shot, but I can see the argument that he wants guys to move into him.

    The weight shifting, the jabbing...What Ketchel is doing isn't technical dispursement. It's flat out clumsy. Bernard Hopkins shift, but he keeps his center and his stance. I'm talking about the exagerrated leaning. Same with the jab. Yeah, putting some body into it, but lunging is just asking for it.

    I don't think it matters, though. Calling him a master technician is laughable, because he isn't, and it's also clear he isn't trying to be. Some guys are just fighters: Their mission as simple as dealing as much damage as possible. I can totally buy that. I do NOT buy that he wouldn't have been in desperate trouble with guys like Hagler and Robinson, but he could clearly go to war.
     
  6. dpw417

    dpw417 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Didn't say he was a master technician...I said what I said, and that was in regards to Ketchel's inside fighting...and that is alot of fighters have emulated those same tactical moves (on the inside) to very good effect...Spot on about the lunging and Hopkins' center of gravity, always on balance (very poor choice on my part and distinctly different)...and also agree on Hagler and Robinson being too much.

    It is what it is though...during his time. Top of the food chain for the weight.
     
  7. MagnaNasakki

    MagnaNasakki Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    He has a very distinct style of brawling...It's very imposing. He doesn't just want to hit you hard, he wants to get a hold of you and dominate you physically. He just ragdolls Papke. Not only would that be disheartening, but man, that would be exhausting. Think of how heavy the arms would get after 5 or 6 rounds German arm wrestling with a guy like that. Yikes.
     
  8. dpw417

    dpw417 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    That true...But want to say thanks for the tactical breakdown on Ketchel's style. I asked ...and you delivered. Cheers.