Earnie Shavers Power?

No. God, NO! This needs to stop. So over-rated. Basically propagated to inflate the legends of guys like Ali and Holmes.

Show me when Shavers cleaned out a dude like Lewis did Bruno. How about like when Wilder smoked Breazeale?

 

Not on film because they weren't worth being filmed.

Did you see Quarry take his shots w/o blinking. Quarry was a warrior, but he belonged at LHw. He was as much a Heavyweight as Qawi.

 

That's kind of funny because Joe Bugner himself said Shavers hit harder than Frank Bruno and Bruno was known for his strength and power and he was a sculpted 230-245lb guy. Shavers power is overrated but it's not impossible for a small guy to punch above his weight. It happens. I believe Shavers was one of those guys. Too many people said he was a devastating puncher for it to be ignored

 

I need to be a mod for a week or two

 

Well, good thing I said Lewis, then, right? I don't doubt that Shavers was a better KO artist than Bruno. But, again, when did you see Shavers do to ANYONE what Lewis did to Bruno?

Not trying to sound snarky, just trying to show that Boxing has "evolved", for lack of a better word.

 

He's butt hurt.

 

To be fair Bruno didn't have the greatest chin. Mike Tyson blasted him out to and Tyson wasn't the biggest guy. Shavers was a clubber, like Foreman and bludgeoned guys on the ropes. I wouldn't be suprised if Lewis hit harder but Shavers seemed to have some powerful hands, just a sloppy delivery system

 

TBF, Young didn't have the greatest chin.
TBF, Ellis didn't have the greatest chin.
TBF, Norton had a HORRIBLE chin.

Shavers fought lots of guys who were easy to hit and still lost after hitting them.

Lewis was getting out-boxed and w/ a single left hook smoked Bruno.

Forget Lewis, what about Wilder!? Yeah, his competition is rubbish, but they're huge guys who a full-time fighters with proper camps - not ragamuffins looking for a quick buck to pay the bondsman. Look how he nearly killed Ortiz.

Not tryin to disagree, with your post per se. You just gave me a good chance to rant at some of the creepy dudes who fantasize about the "good" old days.

Shavers was very, very accurate. He actually laid the ground work for more modern Boxers. He bulked up and specialized in picking shots.

 

It ain't decent or fair to "rant" & call people "creepy" because the disagree with your specific ideas about power.
It also does not mean that they are necessarily nostalgic or prefer the old days.
Just like you need not be a mindless ignoramus who automatically pick bigger more recent guys. Both conclusions-without looking at the reasons for drawing conclusions-are mean & likely ageist.

There are some basic points that many have made which you have not absorbed.
Mainly that KOs always have a very imperfect correlation with power.
Timing, volume, combination punching, accuracy, endurance & chin to even get there are huge factors.

Shavers was not very good at the other factors (for a world class fighter).
Moore was what you would call essentially a modern LHW yet had the most KOs ever in the division. He was far from the hardest hitter, even then!

I am really surprised anyone calls Shavers even accurate, let alone "very, very accurate".
He absolutely was not, especially when trying to finish, someone, like Holmes.
If he was, even with all his relative limitations, he would likely have been an ATG.

He did not much "pick his shots". he tried to throw continuous bombs.
How did he bulk up? He chopped wood, good for explosive power, but started in size not far from where he finished.
He was 6' tall & ~ 210 lbs. Not bulky by modern standards, & not very lean (nor fat).
Maybe you are thinking of someone else entirely when claiming he was very accurate, bulked up, or picked his shots?

Quarry took him out very quickly, that example is bad.
Faster hands & he was a Giant Killer.

It seems that literally everyone who fought him, whether they won or lost, fought top & huge competition from the '60's-'90's say he hit the hardest.
By definition this is not some myth to prop up Ali.

Shavers hit like a Freight Train. A combination of huge/heavy hands, long arms, explosiveness & going for broke.
The question is can anyone that size hit as hard or harder than the most powerful SHWs?

Maybe not.
But also maybe so in rare cases: there is well recognized diminishing returns after a certain size.
And throwing a punch is not so different than throwing a (not really heavy like a shot put) ball or hitting one.
There are still unknown factors of what ingredients make some guys superior-& the builds vary a bit re: how rangy or bulky to produce it.

But even with all the science & modern training, with measurable phenomena such as who can throw a ball the hardest (miles per hour, recorded with much accuracy) or furthest, or hit one the greatest distance...
Those who do so are NOT SHW size. In fact absolutely none of them are.

I can write reams about this, but Google "Steve Dalkowski". He likely threw faster than any human ever known.
Many eventual major league players, managers & others testify to this.
He never played there because he was extremely wild & threw out his arm when he finally acquired some control & made the Big :eagues.
But he was no hard body, & at best the size of an average modern SMW.

 

He could hit hard but he was nowhere near the hardest puncher. Most of the new boxing fans see how Ali and Holmes said he was the hardest puncher and think he indeed was the hardest puncher, while this simply isn't true. He lost the fights against Ali and Larry Holmes, and his KO of pseudo-great Kenny Norton who was allergic to hard punchers is not a very great feat of power. Most of his knockouts were against undersized men and somehow his KO percentage dropped when he faced genuine heavyweights. He'd get sparked out by other punchers like George Foreman or the Klitschkos.

 

The reason why I think Wlad's size doesn't matter is becuz boxers hit the hardest at their best weight. Let's take James Toney for example, that guy took a lot of punishments from HW yet the guy who hit him the hardest is from Jr middleweight which his name is Merqui Sosa. Leonard fought Hagler and Duran but Duran hit the hardest.

So if Shavers is just a cruiserweight by today's standards... just imagine that Shavers exist in the cruiserweight division during Wladimir's era and there's a cruiserweight boxer who manage to fight Shavers and Wladimir when he traveled to heavyweight, I wouldn't be surprised if he said that Shavers hit him the hardest. You get what saying?

 

Just concerning the rating of Shavers' power relative to his own era.

1) I believe Shavers was among the hardest punchers of his day, particularly for consistency of power with Earnie swinging for a KO with each and every shot and therefore it's no mystery as to why Earnie experienced early rd gassing issues. Gassing takes energy away from the raw power but it also lends to sloppy technique in later rounds.

2) I do not believe Earnie was clear and away the hardest single shot hitter of his day and perceptions and descriptions of his power in that regard have been exaggerated in some measure.

I think opinions 1) and 2) are not mutually exclusive and can indeed happily co-exist.

To support Earnie's claim to hardest puncher, the same old quotes are trodden out and given disproportionate weighting, particularly in regards to fights for which full vision is available. Where vision is available, I defer to what I can see first and will obviously agree with quotes that match the vision but the quotes don't constitute themselves as hard evidence in their own right.

For some, I wonder how much said quotes substantively comprise their opinion re Earnie's power? If the quotes didn't exist, would the impression of Earnie's power be that much less? Or, do they feel that the quotes uphold their perception of the available vision anyway?

I could call into question each and every quote, particularly in regards to it being at odds with the available vision and/or recorded result.

I could also call into question the claim that Shavers' skill level or lack thereof precluded KDs or KOs in various instances. I think Shaver's technique and accuracy was more than sufficient on a number of occasions for Earnie to put over 1,2,3 etc. of his best shots, to properly allow for rating of his power and I could cite plenty of vision to back this up.

I'll address just two well circulated quotes. That of Larry Holmes and Leroy Caldwell.

Holmes claimed Shavers hit harder than Tyson and I also read that Holmes claimed that he could've arisen EVEN after the final KO shot executed by Tyson. The right hand Holmes took from Shavers was as perfectly delivered and placed as one can get. Holmes also came onto the punch a bit, put that down to Earnie's good luck or good timing. Holmes was already hurt earlier in the round so it might've been perceived as an ATG "finisher" but manifestly it wasn't.

Now given the heady descriptions of Shavers power it wasn't unjustified to assume that the punch might've kept Larry down or at least have him completely impaired upon rising. Holmes had a great chin but I don't think that was all there was to it in his ability to rise from a perfect punch from the deemed hardest hitter. No, perhaps simply while Earnie hit extremely hard he didn't hit quite as hard as some would have it. Holmes has also claimed that Ali is overrated. Holmes' own placement in history is very much in focus when he opines on other fighters.

The Tyson right hand that yielded the first KD was HUGE but it hit Larry on the left temple. Equilibrium screwed but if just a few inches lower on the chin, at least IMO, Larry would've been OUT right then and there. The last right hand was as big a punch as I have ever seen Holmes take. Upon impact, Holmes was out, dropped like a dead man, left leg bent under him, head bouncing hard off the canvas, the ref. immediately removing Larry's mouthpiece. As such, I don't at all believe Holmes' claim that he could've risen and and as such I can further conclude that Holmes' wasn't prepared to give Tyson's punch the due credit it deserved, deferring back to an older school, more likeable Earnie whose punch Larry just so happened to survive. Tillis could be accused of the same agenda, perhaps fine to nominate Shavers as the hardest puncher but giving himself away somewhat by conversely claiming that Tyson didn't hit hard at all.

Re Leroy Caldwell. Quite the resume with Williams, Foreman, Shavers and Lyle. Okay, Williams was obviously an older and impaired version but gauging him from the Chuvalo fight, though so much less of himself otherwise, it appeared the Big Cat could still hit some. Then we have Foreman and Shavers, both seeing off Caldwell in less than 2 rds each, though it seems Foreman punched 6 seconds harder than Earnie. Kidding. Then later, Caldwell drops a 5 rd UD to Lyle. What does one make of all that? Well, Caldwell somehow concluded that Shavers hit so much harder than George and, in fact, even harder than George and Ron combined? Lyle was a boxer/puncher, sometimes more one than the other and certainly in a dog fight, the true extent of Ronnie's power was better upheld. Less quoted is Caldwell's addendum re Lyle that Lyle could sure hit but he couldn't hurt what he couldn't hit (alluding to Caldwell's own evasiveness). The deficiency in skill card is often played exclusively for Earnie but the true power of both Foreman (esp. v Ali and Young) and Lyle was not always fully realized in the face of more skilled and/or savvy opposition. Tbh, given his power and overall tools, Lyle was quite the enigma in some fights, setting himself back more than the opposition did.

I could write a lot more to rationalize at least how I perceived Earnie's power and how it has been a bit overrated over time. Nostalgic or not, I'm a fan more of the 70s HW crew (of course including Shavers) than any other era but will always judge them objectively.

One final observation to throw into the mix was a well practiced, barely governed, illegal move on Earnie's part. Sure, Ali had his holding, Foreman his shoving, etc. etc. but Earnie's trick directly related to the landing and effect of his punch. Earnie blatantly held and pushed opponents heads down for the oncoming uppercut. Not once, twice, three times but a hell of a lot more than I knew before I saw most of his fights. Earnie hit plenty hard as it was but that clearly served to secure the target and add some extra force for good measure. The Ellis fight is a marquee example of same. Certainly Lennox Lewis was guilty of same in some fights and used it to particularly great effect v Michael Grant.

See Earnie v Bugner. I remember reading the single line result, TKO rd 2. Hugely impressive. However, watching the fight I saw Shavers, as usual throwing for all he was worth but also landing low blow after low blow. Crazy. I see Shavers constantly holding Joe behind the head to set up for the uppercut. Finally, Shavers connects with a huge overhand right, a clean legit shot, rocking Bugner right back but Joe remains solidly upright. Then, straight after, I see Earnie hold Joe's head with his right hand to dig in a low blow with his left before quickly exchanging hands to hold Joe's head with his left glove to rip through a right hand uppercut as a potential finisher which sends Bugner down but only briefly, Shortly after rising, Bugner cops another neck hold with this left and simultaneous right hand uppercut which really lifted his head but this time Joe hangs tough. Bugner then begins to dig in back at Earnie, including with working with a chopping downward right on the smaller Shavers but a cut eye (some say from a butt but I don't know) halts proceedings. Without the cut I would've seriously given Bugner a very good chance to out last and stop Earnie thereafter despite Shavers landing some of his heaviest artillery in an abbreviate fight.

It's frustrating that there is next to no vision available of Shavers hitting the heavy bag in his viable prime years. I would love to see that. My favourite HW heavy bag workouts in no particular order except the Bomber at the top are: Louis, Ali, Foreman and Liston. Could Earnie's single shots possibly look as fearsome as did Foreman's in Zaire let alone harder? Possibly I guess and if so, again, I would love to see it.. Suffice to say, not to be fooled by same, I think Dick Saddler's reactions while holding the bag for Foreman were perhaps deliberately a tad histrionic and meant to enhance the effects a bit but they were scary punches in their own right any which way and Ali's team pointedly averted him from seeing George destroy the heavy bag. Who would you prefer to hold the bag for, George or Earnie? My answer would be Jimmy Young thank you very much. LOL.

 

Sosa wouldn't do shite to the guy that beat Jirov and had a SD with Peter.

Wlad hit much harder than Shavers.

 

You're adorable.

yes, when shavers had opponents hurt he went ape sh'it and it was terrible for him. Butthat's not how he got them hurt in the first place.

If he's the hardest puncher ever, why did a natural Light Heavyweight walk through his punches? Could Quarry have taken Lewis, Wlad, Wilder or Sanders' punches?

Shavers clearly carried more muscle mass into the ring than other fighters of his era. He was "bulked up". And he was more accurate than the clubbing Foreman.

Holmes was susceptible to the overhand right. We have to understand Shavers is being compared to guys like Ronaldo Snipes. Ali's legs were absolutely gone.