Earnie Shavers Power?

So?

Proof?

 

Shavers hit so hard he KOd fighters and woke them up with the same punch at times.....yes he is still the hardest hitter.....Wilder might hit harder but his career isn't over yet but his power is there

Fighters can only be measured against their eras competition and how they performed in their era

 

First of all, quarry has a granite chin. He took clean shots guys like Joe Frazier and Ron Lyle. He only took 3-4 shots from Shavers and taking eating little amount of Shavers power does not prove he is featherfisted.

 

I am glad you are back from your...Hiatus, directly following complaints of abuse when you freaked out with insults, name calling, & various demeaning statement projecting your own heavily triggered reactions upon me.
Even after I described my "Quackology" comment as a joke-although the wink should have been a dead give away-& said sorry for the misunderstanding, explicitly noted as done to keep the peace.
I will continue to spare you a response to your final Freak-Out unless more harassment follows.



Although it seems like instead of reforming on principle, you just offer a patronizing, feminizing diminutive "you're adorable"-calculated to fall a bit south of what can get you in trouble or earn you an exile.
But if you are never big enough to apologize publicly or by private message, I promise to hold no grudge.

If we end up having a friendly, take the **** out of the other relationship that would be fine.
But I & others have a zero-tolerance policy for the abuse that brought own this forum & drove away a bunch of great posters over the decade + I have been here.
I do not assume you took the cowardly alt route, so are new; you need to be decent & earn respect after such behavior.

Anywho, I am very fine with disagreements, thus off with equanimity & without prejudice my take on your responses...

1) I already explained what another has echoed since-adding that Quarry ha an iron chin.
Shavers landed extremely briefly on Jerry before he got blitzed by his faster hands & great inside work.
1 a) Natural LH? Eh, he was a natural HW for the era. Today with a great deal of cutting water weight & reanimating himself to ~ 200 on the say of the fight he could make LHW.

2) I think that you just do not understand what the term "bulked up" means.
I have lifted for years, but ask anyone here-it means someone who either added more mass than they would normally have doing say routine boxing workouts, or for their frames...OR if they gained this weight after fighting at their more natural weight for a while.
Shavers was nothing like that.

Holyfield is a great example. Although some moved through more divisions & added a higher percentage of mass, his was not a result of either adding body fat or natural filling out from when very young.
It was intense, efficient, even guided by 8 time Mr. Olympia Lee Haney workouts...And PEDs that got him from easily making 190 to 217 : while his legs & whole lower body remained lean-& while still pretty darn cut.

But you are right that he was more muscular than most for his era.
However if you think about it not by much: if you analyze the body fat & height & weight of him & say prime Frazier, it was virtually identical.
Shavers no leaner, & just because taller a very few pounds heavier.
Difference is Joe had the mass in his legs & backside instead of upper body.
So what you see as "clearly" more mass-is in large part because most all notice the UPPER body more. When 60% of muscle mass is normally held below the waist!
Anyway soon after Shaver's prime (starting in the 1980's) the average fighter carried about that same amount of muscle.

3) You seem to purposely change a position you know is completely indefensible: that Shavers was "very, very accurate".
If you start a thread about that, you may get zero votes out of dozens that agree-& most all will tell you he was not particularly accurate, among other flaws. He hit air often enough, Pugguy has a great recent post about how he hit & held-that would obviate the need for accuracy, lol! But I remind him that Tyson felled Holmes with a combination, & not seeing it & multiple punches can have far more effect than a single pole-axe shot, even if your arm does not get caught in the ropes...

3 a) You can at least make an argument that he was more accurate than Foreman, because the latter was sometimes wild.
But I do not think this is so overall. Although no huge difference, remember George cut the ring well & allowing greater accuracy, + sometimes deployed a great jab.

4) FAIR POINTS about Holmes/Ali/Snipes.
It is impossible to know how hard guys hit. Pugguy could be right that it was not #1, just really hard...
But even his well written efforts do not account for the universal consensus on Shavers-even when there is no credible agenda to lie, the effects *given* his limitations, & what we see on film. Although most of his KOs are not even captured.

But I would like everyone who uses results to acknowledge the indisputable truth that results have many ingredients, & power is just one of many factors going into a KO.

 

My bad, I missed your ref. to my post.

Just a few things. Tyson’s final KO shot on Holmes wasn’t part of an effectively landed combo per se., meaning, it stood up as a single shot though Mike had clocked Larry with a good right not long before that. Still, as landed, I believe that last right sees Larry off in its own right. A huge punch.

LOL. True, the ropes put a halt to a possible Weaveresque uppercut turning it around for Holmes. Unfortunately the boxing gods only allocated Larry one ATG, fight ending uppercut per his career thus their intervention.

As to Earnie holding and uppercutting, that was to both highlight not just fixing of the target but also illegal enchancement to the power of the punch on those occasions.

I’ve got no problem stating that otherwise Earnie could be very accurate, well timed and particularly fast handed on occasions.

I think complexions of bouts are being duly considered as opposed to just cold examination of stats and end point results and in some ways Earnies KO record, given the latter type of analysis, perhaps holds up better in some ways without deeper examination.

Where Earnie didn’t secure a KD or KO, his lack of skills IMHO is being overstated to explain same, particularly when one can clearly see Earnie landing sufficiently on the opposition in said bouts.

Earnie’s TKO 3 over Young is a stunning line of record, not just for the implication of power but that Earnie could catch up so quickly to Young.

Earnie also scored what was described as a brutal KD in rd 4 of the rematch before securing a draw though I’ve read many felt Young deserved the points.

Again, to the quotes. I’ve read andr heard some at source myself but not all and I don’t doubt those otherwise provided here. There is also the framing of the question and how said fighters interpreted same. Who hit you the hardest, who punched you the hardest, who was the hardest hitter, etc. Anyway, I’m sure you get my drift. In terms of interpretation, I could imagine answers ranging from the single hardest punch literally taken to the highest average power maintained.

Individually the quotes have a certain weighting and that weighting does obviously increase when they comprise a consensus. However, while each possible agenda isn’t uniformly applicable a good number of fighters are arguably prone to nominating those they beat in order to self boost, they’re also prone to personal affinity, era related loyalty and exclusivity, band wagon jumps etc.

Certainly, there seemed to be competition as to who could invoke the best superlatives, similes and metaphors to describe Earnie’s power. Shall we say Tillis is the winner in that regard? LOL.

Like I said, or I think I did, LOL, I’m pretty sure at least Holmes and Tillis liked Earnie a hell of a lot more than they did Tyson as at the time. At least in Holmes case his exposure to Tyson’s power was also a lot more abbreviated.

As a thought experiment, let’s say I fought Foreman over say 8 rounds and he only managed 2 or 3 shots on me (yes, I am that good) but those shots are absolute bombs that I survive. Then I engage Shavers over 15 rds, every shot registering 8 or 9 on the Richter scale but not quite the 10 that Foreman’s handful measured. Ask me who hit hardest, if not bothered to duly qualify myself I might say Shavers who hit harder on average and more often, leading to the oft heard/read statement “Every time Earnie hit me it huuuurrrttt!! LOL. Then I might launch into a rant, vying for the most poetic and best ever verbal conveyance of Earnie’s power.

Anyway, awesome discussion and there’s a lot I agree with but not everything which is normal.

 

I should have known that he would've scored a KD in the rematch against Young. It seems a pretty common pattern with the guy.

Good points. Only thing I'll say is that, even if we can't conclusively say Earnie hit harder than somebody like Foreman, I think there's more than enough to conclude he was a very hard puncher by heavyweight standards.

 

Wlad and Wilder clearly hit way harder than Shavers ever could.

 

Great post! Thorough, good humored & erudite Puguy.

Your cautions are well-taken. However, the right Holmes absorbed by Tyson likely had some effect, it has been noted that if Shavers landed on the chin Holmes would have been zombiefied, & Larry was inactive & rusty for several years by then.
Just Tyson landing at a more vulnerable spot could produce a greater effect, let alone these other factors.

While the biases you present may all operate, when everyone agrees Shavers hit the hardest it strains credulity that enough rationale for universal bias exists.
Era bias is irrelevant when they are speaking about who they faced.
Guys who won or lost picked him.
Shavers deficits *may* be overstated-that I am unsure of-but they existed, & Foreman & others are more likely to have landed more of those flush punches. Including jabs.
Cobb is a candidate for most colorful quotes in most all matters!

I just do not think they all liked him best, or all jumped on a bandwagon.
Shavers will never get as much bang for his buck as a great combination puncher like Tyson or Louis, in part because their hands were so fast often blows could not be properly seen, defended, or braced for. So they have even more effect that their already considerable power.

I think you can find many fighters who took as many or more flush power shots from others & still picked Earnie.
Although there is no massive difference between our suppositions, you that he hit among the very hardest at least until modern SHW times, me saying he may have hit as hard or harder than anyone, & at least was the hardest hitter around that weight ever.

 

Wladimir, Tyson, Lewis and Wilder had more one punch knockouts on tape than Shavers.

 

The question is how many fights do they have on tape and how many does Shavers?

 

In kind, nice and well upheld post also.

Re era related loyalty, I'm talking at least in respect of the opinions of Holmes and Tillis as they pertain to Shavers (old) and Tyson (new). Larry being reasonably embedded in the old era while Tillis was a relative intermediary between said eras.

After his fight with Earnie, Tillis invoked Ali's take on Earnie's power whilst also giving his own, which may or may not be seen as bragging rights surviving a reputed hitter, as testified by Ali also, no less. Ali used the old kinfolk line, kinfolk that had to be very nervous in anticipation of the apparently not so infrequent times when they were "shook". After Larry beat Earnie in the rematch he told Cosell how much he loved Shavers and then turned to Earnie sitting behind him and told him directly so. Like I said, no such demonstrative affection for Mike. LOL.

Btw, a little while back I found the Witherspoon v Tillis fight on Youtube which I had never seen before. It's an old video version and the quality is so so (uploader didn't appear to be familiar with the merits of adjusting the "tracking") but hey, he was good enough to upload it and beggars can't be choosers. Timmy landed one hell of a right to put Tillis down and start him on his way. I wonder what Tillis had to say, if anything, about that single bomb?

Though he has also said Lyle hit him hardest, at one stage in an interview, Foreman, who had never even fought Earnie also nominated Shavers as the biggest puncher of the era. Further, although I didn't see it that way, Foreman had also said that some of the punches he caught Ali with were some of the hardest he ever laid on a man. Such comments would've helped the claim to hardest puncher gain even more traction.

Interesting that when asked re the power of Frazier and Foreman, Chuvalo didn't necessarily rate one over the other, rather he qualified the type of power via the well known speeding Pontiac (Frazier) vs the slower Mack Truck (Foreman) analogy. Years later, Holmes dusted that one off likening Earnie to a speeding Ferrari and Tyson to a Mack Truck, speed of said truck not specified.

Not to flog a dead horse but Earnie's right hand on Holmes was perfect in every sense, including placement, bang on an already shaky Larry's chin, best seen from the less seen angle of the KD, from behind Earnie.. Couldn't have wished or hoped for better. After Larry got up, Earnie's attempt to follow up was perhaps one of the worst I've ever seen though he did manage to catch Larry with some subsequent heavy hits. I would more lean to his losing his head more than his skill (skill perhaps including the ability to keep your head I guess) limiting his ability to clean up. Certainly, Earnie's TKO over Henry Clark in their rematch was one of Shaver's better all round performances. Punched to kill as always, more than accurate but once he had Clark hurt, he took a breath to assess his next move and finished the job properly. Earnie's performance v Ali was one of his best, IMO, measured and picking his spots nicely. Much was made of Earnie being fooled by Ali's antics in cover of being hurt by Earnie's epic rd 2 leg buckling right hand. Though waving Shavers in, I'm sure Ali was still hurt but reasonably recuperated and I don't know that Shavers exercised undue caution, rather he bucked against type, took his time and he certainly caught Ali on the ropes shortly thereafter, coolly tagging Ali with a powerful left hook and uppercut. Earnie was no dope and a clearly shook Ali quickly moved off the ropes.

Wow. How did I forget the many witticisms of Randall "Ben Dover" Cobb? Tillis might've been competitive at least in respect of his comments re Shavers but Quick certainly had nothing on Randy in terms of overall resume.

Finally, an old quote I like that was in answer to a reverse perspective on the question of power. Floyd Patterson was asked which opponent he hit the hardest. Floyd was like, duh, I can't answer that question UNLESS I go around to all the opponents I've ever hit and ask them how it felt. Sometimes it's the more quiet ones that come out with the absolute classics, ala Joe Louis.

As you said, while we might be focusing on some individual trees with different opinions, we're perceiving near enough to the same forest, viz: Earnie Shavers was an elite puncher, both hands with a good assortment of punch types for delivery.

 

Alrighty very nice; thank you for the detailed, entertaining analyses!

Now I see what you mean about eras. And the loyalties you describe vis a vis Holmes surely applies.
I did not think Holmes got hit in the perfect spot by Shavers, but send any angles I might not have seen!

I do think Ali juked Shavers, as he did Frazier. He recovered remarkably quickly, but that does not mean he was suitably back online when he did the chicken dance. He needed every second to gather his wits & senses, & if Shavers attacked immediately & hit him effectively that may well have been a finish.

Shavers had decent variety, but his power was I think not as balanced left & right as someone like Marciano, but clealy more power than him.

Foreman said many inexact, exaggerated & overly gracious, implausible things in his second incarnation as an affable teddy bear.
But I never heard it said that he said Shavers hit the hardest, & I have read a bunch of threads just here on Shavers & others as candidates for hardest hitter ever.
So considering that few heard him saying this-I am assuming you are right-& that he never faced Shavers, I think this could not add to the opinion on Shavers.
Foreman plausibly says on video that Lyle, Williams & Cooney hit him the hardest.

I woul be surprised if Chuvalo did not pick the mack truck, but his point is that both will smoke you lol!
I did not know about the Holmes/Shavers lovefest, very nice!

 

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Here’s an Earnie compilation. I’m not always a fan of music dubbed over but I do like the Limp Bizkit MI theme on this one. Moves along well with Earnie bashing people.

At the start you will also see cuddly George waxing lyrical re Earnie.

Then go to 3:02 for….oops my bad, that’s just gratuitous vision of Earnie up close and personal with an absolutely gorgeous bunny, and yes, you’re welcome!

Actually, go to 3:34 for the less oft seen angle of the round 2 right hand on Ali and then 3:38 for similar vision of the rd 7 right hand on Holmes both of whom, in balance, had ATG chins, particularly in terms of recuperative powers. Suffice to say, Chuvalo and Cobb’s “no blink” chins were different animals again. “Recuperate from what?” they would reply in genuine bemusement.

All in all, a nicely edited montage.

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Earnie Shavers had the power but lacked the stamina.

 

Very nice! Can you imagine if we could see most of his 68 KOs?
But this seems like the same song that the great Reznik here used to make a superb Max Baer compilation video.

I like the possibility that the GOAT in power might not have to be among the biggest guys around.
That some have a special alchemy that is in part of mystery. They shoot their fist in this case into, or produce an effect of, "The COuld of Unknowing".

Cobb was at least KOed in MMA by a kick.
I nominate McCall as the GOAT chin. Fought forever, modern big HWs, 300 + rounds sparring with Tyson, no defensive specialist-& never even down.
Him vs. Shavers, that would be something.
The irresistible force vs. the immovable object.