Earnie Shavers vs Muhammad Ali 1080P

I appreciate your considerate reply. If I ever get around to rewatching it I will try to post scoring.

However, as it stands, we obviously disagree on several aspects which is no drama and no need to repeat same as we know what they are.

I’ll just add: Besides round two, Earnie landed other equal if not greater flush shots - shots that were described as nearly decapitating Ali - such was their obvious power and impact.

There were certainly some punches blocked and partially blocked by Earnie but there were also many that got through clean. Then we have the question, did the greater volume of punches landed by Ali outweigh the lesser number but more powerful shots landed by Earnie? I believe so but understand the respective weighting of a power shots vs several lesser punches landed can vary from one pundit to another.

Earnie was in great shape (trained intensely for 9 weeks) and notably well paced so as to not gas - therefore his output was notably less than that of the less inhibited Ali.

Sure, the 15th was only 1 of 15 but Shavers wasn’t just a bit staggered - he was badly hurt (imo, the most substantively hurt of either fighter during the whole fight) and if it had gone that little bit longer - Ali may well have scored a TKO.

It wasn’t fatigue because during the 15th Earnie was still moving and throwing as he had been UNTIL Ali began catching him with some isolated sharp and accurate punches before putting together a sustained combination that really had Earnie rock’n’ and reel’n’ and buckling into the ropes at one point.

Earnie, his legs wobbly, was still clearly hurt as he headed back to his corner.

Just curious, I can’t recall but did Shavers ever nominate the single hardest punch he ever landed on an opponent?

I kinda remember Earnie being quoted as saying both Ali and Holmes were the toughest guys he faced since he hit them with his hardest shots but couldn’t put either away. Interesting.

 

Which rounds did you give to Ali and which to Shavers ?!
Also, don't you have any even rounds ?!????

 

I can’t speak for @JabbaTheGut but I don’t think I’m alone in being loathe to ever score a round even. Almost always there’s something to tip it one way or the other — even in slow, feeling-out type opening rounds where one guy lands two jabs and the other three.

Far better to give a round to one guy even for doing just a bit more than to habitually score rounds even because they’re close.

A 12-round fight can be extremely close and still be scored 120-108 … if the same guy does just enough to edge every round even by a razor’s margin.

But I also take this into account when seeing how someone could score a fight a different way. If I have a fight 7-5 for one guy in rounds but three of those rounds are close that could swing it either way. It doesn’t mean robbery, it means it was a close fight that either man could justifiably be said to have deserved to win.

 

Great.

I know Earnie landed some good shots, I've said so myself. BUT none of his shots were as as hard as the one he hit Holmes with.
As for the commentators, they were very dumb and exaggerated a lot in their commentary. I remember a similar scenario when Holyfield fought Lewis. Whenever Holyfield landed a shot, the commentators were quick to eulogize and point it out, yet they did not do the same when Lewis landed. Funny thing is Lewis clearly won the fight and out-landed Holyfield like 2-3 to 1.

This is the main thing where we fundamentally disagree. IMO Ali did not land, he hit Shavers's guard 90% of the time.

Irrespective of this fight, I understand your perspective of quantity over quality, for me it's always gonna be quality over quantity. After all, this is professional boxing, not amateur where every tap counts. IMO at pro level, a punch is supposed to do damage, boxers should try to hurt each other, not just to tap one another.

I didn't explain properly what I meant, which is that if Ali landed the same punches on Shavers in round 1, Shavers wouldn't have been as damaged as he was in round 15.

I don't remember reading about it, perhaps there are more knowledgeable posters that can enlighten us.
But even if he gave an answer, he could be wrong, since it will only be his estimation (based on memory), and not an exact measurement.

The funny thing is they were also the best he ever faced.

 

Earnie won, and had a large chunk of legacy stolen from him. The reason that the posted scores weren't questioned is because the biased commentators made it sound like Ali was winning. Muhammad was hitting gloves all night. He won on popularity, just like against Norton. Terrible shame.

 

The first thing I do when I see someone on the internet call this fight or that fight a robbery is to go to boxrec, look up the fight, and see how the experienced UPI and AP boxing writers scored it

 

As I said, we know where we disagree, we probably don’t need to repeat unless we can add further qualification/evidence.

Conceptually, I wouldn’t say quality over quantity finitely without general elaboration or, even better, examination of the fight in question. - .

Say, for the sake of example, there is 1 power shot vs 10 medium punches in a round, all eligible for scoring, then one could reasonably calculate volume/quality as exceeding the singular quality. The weighting of power vs volume will vary from one observer to another - though I understand you have Ali landing only a mere 10% of punches thrown which we don’t agree on as you know - but I def. agree there was a certain number that did catch glove.

I can also add that Ali, in shoot out style, was slinging his shots with more intent in the 15th and Earnie, otherwise in good shape, did get buckled badly. All fighters will be that much more vulnerable in the later and final rounds but Ali’s ability to hurt Earnie was due more to the shots he was landing than Shavers’ isolated fatigue which wasn’t at all pronounced.

Also, even being only for that round, Ali gets scored for punches landed and their effect on Earnie absolute, not relative to the round in question or assumptions re the recipient’s gas tank.

I would steer clear of even rounds also IF reasonably possible. I say reasonably because you also don’t want to auto force a Sophie’s Choice - meaning IF you can’t reasonably separate the fighters you shouldn’t look for a trivial aspect just for the sake of giving one fighter the edge over the other.

I guess it’s possible for judges to consciously be aware of numerous close rounds and even if they award one way or the other without calling any even, they still might “even” it up by alternating the close rd by rd edge from one fighter to another - which isn’t exact science though but it would look more decisive on the judge’s part as opposed to an implied “cop out” with higher than average number of even rounds - but sometimes even rounds simply are what they are and the most fair and equitable way to score a round..

Yes, Ali and Holmes were the two best a viable Earnie faced and it just so happens they were also the two most naturally durable.

I’ve said it before, boxing should have its own Mount Rushmore with the faces of the best chinned ATGs aptly carved out in stone.

 

I agree, i don't like scoring even rounds

 

i said every time i've watched the fight, i haven't scored it in a while but i remember it being easy to score. As for even rounds i don't like scoring rounds even.