Earnie Shavers vs. Oliver McCall

Your comments are even more applicable to Shavers.

At least you had to BE somebody to beat McCall.

Call me when McCall loses to somebody like:

this guy:
http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/16104

or this guy:
http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/2642

In addition to Holmes and Lewis, McCall has wins over Oquendo, Whitaker, Akinwande, Maskaev, Damiani and Seldon. That's a pretty solid lineup.

 

If McCall had fought as frequently as Shaver's used to on the way up he'd have plenty more embarrassing losses on his record as well. He was notorious for performing hot and cold, not being properly prepared, starting too late in fights, so on and so forth.

Triple or quadruple the rate that McCall actually fought early on and he'd have plenty more losses, just like Shaver's.

I don't know why fans don't understand that nuance of the game, that the more active you are the more likely you are to have an off night, or run into someone exceptionally sharp on any given night to counter your lack of preparedness.

 

89 bouts to 73.

Granted Shavers was more busy, but they were both pretty active heavies. 16 more fights is not a huge amount more. I just like what I see more when I see McCall and I feel his highs were higher and his lows less low.

 

Alright Combates, now let's discuss this absent the yelling & cursing.
Though with others, you are not abusive here.

1) First we need to define what his actual reputation is, in deciding if it is overrated.
There are always a few who find see...A few boxers as indestructible.
But most anyone who knows boxing is that this is not physically possible.
His overall reputation is AMONG the best chins ever.
That is absolutely true.

2) You listed a bunch of boxers. Two objections here Sir:

A) Many of those you or others could list were not HWs. Toney was part of the time.
You realize that anyone not a HW-with the possible exception of modern day rehydrated CWs-a stretch to say LHWs coming in the ring at 190 or so...
Almost certainly cannot have the same beard?
Because we are *not* discussing chin relative to a division.
Size both helps you absorb blows, & guys who are LHW & below never hit as hard as HWs.

B) You cherry-pick by listing guys with GREAT chins, but describe individual occasions when they were not put down.
How can that compare to *never* being off your feet in 428 rounds?
Let alone 300 + rounds sparring Tyson, & his last fight at age 49?

Nobody sensible thinks Ali, certainly in his first career & down a few times & admittedly "oout on his feet" multiple times vs. Foreman & Frazier-had the same chin.
Even a Tua & Mercer were stopped-with McCall it was like Chuvalo (though he had one ruled a slip which was dubious), not close to being put down when the fight was stopped.

But for both guys that credit is limited because it was stopped.
However, they are the likely the best candidates for GOAT beard.

3) You are undervaluing the "chin resume" of McCall.
He did not fight the very best competition, but he was a World Class fighter who fought some with excellent &/or undefeated records. BC58 named some, there are other names you missed, such as Bruce Seldon. And he fought some guys who were champs in other parts of the world http://boxrec.com/en/boxer/451
In fact, almost EVERY boxer ever-certainly at HW-fought a bunch of mediocre-tomato can fighters.
Including everyone you named.
He fought large, modern sized guys of typical overall quality & punching power.

4) McCall only had a "good" chin?!?
You seem to ignore that not going down-especially if you are not a constant spolier like Marion Wilson-is the *best* sign of great punch resistance.

Look, the critiques of McCall as a boxer are overwhelmingly fair & accurate.
Though he was undeniably World Class, & before he lost 5 0f his last 8-starting at age 45, when most were long retired-he was 54-9.

But it defies all rationality to say a man who fought so many rounds against big HWs & SHWs & was never down-& Tyson typically treated sparring like wars & often could not keep sparring partners, so that counts to...Only had a "good" chin.

I think McCall would weather the storm & either cautiously decision, or stop an exhausted Shavers late.

But nobody who was never down for so long, & against real HWs, does not at least have an ATG chin.

 

No he cannot.

An all out attack by Shavers would result in stoppage loss for McCall who's chin is given mythical powers that didn't really exist.

 

Lol

 

Tua was dropped by Monte Barrett with a single left hook.

 

Could go either way I think theres a good chance McCall breaks him down and stops him in the mid to late rounds but Shavers is one of the few guys i could see knocking McCall out.

 

Shavers could knock out anyone, but he was not always to land adequately against the best.
McCall was not the very best, his focus varied, but he could avoid some punishment & soak up the rest.

I am still waiting for an answer to anyone who thinks McCall's chin in overstated.
Just check out my last long post about it.

 

I don't think it's overstated but it's not undestruclable.

I think Foreman, Mercer or Chuvalo chins aren't any worse.

Mercer was down 3 times through his long career, but he fought more and better punchers than McCall for sure.

He took a knee vs Holyfield after great combination.

Then at 40+ he was dropped by young Wlad's most lethal punch - left hook.

Then at mid 40-s Briggs hit him to the back of the head and Mercer went and stayed down trying to get DQ win (as he later said).

But Mercer took the best shots and series of shoths thrown by Morrison, Lewis, Witherspoon, Cooper, Damiani, Holyfield and Wlad for 6 rounds (when already past 40).

Can you imagine 41 y.o. McCall getting battered by prime Wlad's left hooks and straight rights and never going down in 12 rounds?

Same with Chuvalo and Foreman (I don't think their chins were any worse than McCall's)

McCall had great chin, but not an unique chin.

 

Interestingly, Henry Akinvande caught McCall in the 2nd rd by left hook (off-balance). If not the ropes, McCall would have been knocked down though he wasn't hurt. Only the ropes saved McCall from the 1st knockdown of his career (which would be flash KD)

Check it at 8:20

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Shavers' best wins are probably Norton, Bugner and Ellis. I'd take McCall's win list over Shavers' any day.

 

OK, that seems like a very fair analyses B.U.

Though due to his gassing in his first career, Foreman cannot be said to have quite the chin as the others.

I do not know if McCall would have taken that knee. But maybe he would have.
In any case, if The Atomic Bull is up there with the top handful of men who ever fought in terms of chin-in absolute resistance, not per division-it is absurd to label it only "good".

 

david tua proved a better chin than McCall

 

I don't know about that. McCall has an ATG chin no matter which way you look at it imo. Tua's got a great one too.