Educate me: Cleveland “BigCat” Williams

I agree. Likely the result of poor training. He got to where he did on his own. A guy like D’amato would've done wonders for him, and fixed up the holes in his game.

Another weakness was his glaring lack of survival skills as well.

People say his chin was poor, but I've never brought that. Even Satterfield said he was impressed with his chin, especially when he stood under two thunderous rights in the second round.

He also took some of Liston's best shots, and sometimes returned better than what he got! Unfortunately when Sonny ****ing Liston is landing on you with that type of accuracy, you ain't lasting long.

Or his losses when he was literally shot.

 

It was certainly debatable. The AP had Williams winning and I gave him 6 rounds myself, as did many others who scored the fight.

 

What I said about Williams being about what might have happened in a different time and place … you wonder what someone with Williams’ chops might have done, how much he might have developed beyond where he got, with Angelo Dundee or Ray Arcel guiding his career rather than Hugh Benbow.

 

I didn’t see your post before I made mine along those lines but great minds think alike.

 

Cheers mate.

 

Sonny KO'd him twice, I would think you would know about him

 

He wasn't a prospect in the 60s he was a prospect in the early 50s. Due to Cleveland being shot(meaning with a gun not being washed) before the Ali fight theres a lot of what ifs about him.

In the 50s the best didn't fight each other because there was usually only 1 belt and everyone was complining win streaks without getting title shots creating lots of whats if. It was kind of the flip side of our current system with many "what ifs" and why I caution people who wish for 1 belt. Cleveland is one of these what ifs. There are people who swear at his best he could have beaten just about anyone and hes certainly got all the measurables to succeed in that time 6 ft 2, hit really hard, super fast.

Cleveland very well could have held the belt during Pattersons time if things had fallen different but people take it a little too far. While his KO rate was around 90% before his shooting Cleveland was under .500 against title contenders and he wasn't just losing to Liston he was having trouble with Terrell and Machen. His CV is very light with Terrell, Holman and Miteff being his best wins and people are really going on the "eye test". Either way most would consider him Alis 3rd best title opponent in the 60s behind Liston and Patterson. A majority in 2024 likely pick him to beat Patterson too(I would). Given he lost to Ali after his shooting theres some that think prime Cleveland would have beaten him and I think thats a bridge or two too far.

 

You've absolutely lost me here.

 

CW was a big, fast, powerful and tough fighter but anyone that knows boxing can see his fatal flaw, footwork he had bad footwork before getting shot and worse after. Why didn't he cut guys off? Bad footwork he didn't know how. Why didn't he beat the better fighters even with superior physical attributes? Footwork.

A big puncher with bad feet can't set up shots well and certainly isn't going to get all the torque you get with good footwork. If you look at his legs post gut shot from a .357 you will see muscle atrophy and even worse balance. He overcame the need to maneuver fighters with good footwork with excellent reflexes, his reaction time to opportunity is freaky but still not what it could have been with setting shots up with ring mastery

 

Let a man have his dream. In heaven, I hear it's all just Williams, Shavers, Lyle, and Mercado.

 

He’s the Shavers, Wilder, Ruddock, Galento, Sheppard of his time. Good speed and power but horrible defense and slow feet allowed the better boxers to beat him. I think he would have been better with better coaching. Had he developed a better style for his skills like say Norton he would have been a lot more successful

 

Williams was a last minute sub for the Satterfield fight.
Satterfield was 164 3/4lbs v 167lbs Lamotta.

Williams was 38 when Chuvalo beat him.
How many times must you be corrected on this?

 

I said quite a while back after watching Williams - Terrell that he lacked good fundamentals. Plenty of physical gifts but lacking the technique to really cash in.