Ellis vs Bonavena

Oscar did his best work with people who fought him inside the pocket. Ellis who was a brilliant boxer wasn't going to give him that luxury. As for Ali looking a bit flat against Oscar you have to remember that it was only Muhammad's second fight in nearly four years.. And to answer your question about Jimmy being a natural heavy, no. He began his career at middle weight.

 

This fight shows you the effect of pin-point accurate punching, Ellis had a sneaky right and was accurate, he had average power but was well schooled by Angelo. I remember that fight, Oscar was strong but Jimmy found the mark more than once. Guys like Walcott and Charles were even better at it than Jimmy,credit to Marciano for beating some of the best at it throw in Moore

 

There was also that awkwardness that Oscar improved on as a weapon as he matured as a fighter, Oscar gave Ali hell until Ali found the button with a pin-point left hook against a tired Oscar

 

Yes, I believe that Oscar would have made it to the bell. .....and they criticise Dempsey for not going to a neutral corner BEFORE it was the rule.

 

Some guys are vulnerable to hard thudding punchers and other guys are hurt more by quick pinpoint shots. Chins are not 100% consistent.

 

I was 14 years old (and a boxing fanatic) thru out the Elimination Tournament. All on Wide World of Sports. I wish some of the 'youngsters' on board could have experienced the big fights during that bygone age that were free for us to enjoy!
Sure there were closed circuit fights that we had to pay $10-$15 bucks at the time to see but MOST big s c r a p s were on regular TV to see. The Gillette Friday niters in the late 50's-early 60's, the WWOS bouts in the mid 60's-early 70's! Seemed like every Saturday afternoon had a Championship or elimination bout scheduled.
Back to thread. Jimmy had grown out of MW by late 66.
He became a high 190's guy from that point forward.
You can't argue that he had an impressive 'perfecta' from the summer of 67 thru the end of 68:
Stopped Martin on cuts.
Dominated the plodding Ringo (styles DO make fights)
Beat Quarry in a bore-fest. Yeah, yeah, Quarry's back :?
For anyone who watched that fight, both fighters 'ripped' us off.
Quarry went to the ropes wanting Ellis to wade in for Jerry's 'counterpunch fest'. Ellis staying in the middle of the ring to try to box Jerry's ears off. atsch It wasn't pretty but Jimmy won.
Patterson? Everyone knows he's my man but, after repeated viewings (about 40-50) IMO Floyd refused to go for the 'jugular'.
And, after strangely taking 1969 off (I'd heard he was supposed to fight Cooper) his bout with Joe to unify in early 70 IS something to have in your video library. Their first two rounds IMO rival the first two rounds of Frazier-Quarry in 69. Jimmy moving, landing that right of his, and winning, at least, one round. Of course Joe started 'Smokin' but Jimmy's rising late after getting clocked speaks volumes as to his grit and moxie.
In closing Jimmy was a fine HW with many skills.

 

Jimmy Ellis really got a lot of power on his shots when he planted his feet. Every time I watch his fight with Chuvalo, I'm surprised how strong he seems to be hitting. Just digging in and firing.

I think Ellis suffered from sparring partner syndrome. He was Ali's sparring partner for so long, he never developed the mindset that he could be the best heavyweight in the world.

And having the same corner men as Ali didn't help that. It's not like they could all pump him up and tell him he's the best, when he listened to them for years telling Ali that while he's sparring with Ellis.

There is one photo Ellis that always bothered me and supported this idea in my mind. There is a shot of a bunch of champs gathered before, I believe, the last Ali-Norton fight. There's Ali, Frazier, Patterson, Ellis and Joe Louis together in the shot.

And everyone looks good, except Ellis is wearing a Muhammad Ali training camp shirt. He was a former champ himself. Why would you wear a Muhammad Ali training camp shirt - which a sparring partner or just a 'hanger-on' would wear so he could get access to an event?

Here's the picture: http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/05/07/sports/ELLIS-2-obit/ELLIS-2-obit-articleLarge.jpg

That photo, to me, always spoke volumes about Ellis.

Represent YOURSELF. You were a champ. Carry yourself as one.

If Ellis had a different team behind him, I think he'd have achieved more in his career and would be remembered more.

Ken Norton used to be a Frazier sparring partner. He didn't walk around with a Joe Frazier Training Camp shirt on wherever he went, and he didn't continue to work as Frazier's sparring partner when he got ranked himself. You've got to leave that behind at some point.

 

I have the fight. But I'm sure it's on YouTube. Just search for "Jimmy Ellis George Chuvalo Youtube."

 

Blessings Hookandjab! Glad to meet you as well!
We'll talk soon I'm sure.

 

True, I loved Oscar but I could image how good he would have been if he really took the sport seriously, dont get me wrong he was strong but I watched him train for Patterson and he joked around most of the time, he was a lot like Max Baer that way. He gave Ali a hellish fight and caught him with some bombs and I dont want to hear it was because Ali was off, Ali was in training and fought Quarry, and was a young man. Look at Vitali after 4 years off in his late 30's

A young Ali may have not been strong enough to survive Oscar and then Frazier but we will never know

 

At first I winsed at your saying a young Ali might not have been strong enough for Oscar and Joe but then went back to the first Ali-Chuvalo bout where a slow George regularly caught Muhammad on the ropes pounding him. The saving grace for a younger Ali though was his mobility which was gone in both the Oscar and Frazier 1 bouts, coming back to him in Frazier 2. That played a big factor on what Oscar was able to do in their go. Ali looked great against Jerry but it was too short a bout to see what changes may have occurred.